Friday, April 20, 2007

The NHS: What is to be done?

Dr Rant has been thinking. He’s taken a holiday and thought about some of the comments made by various “anonym users” and feels he needs to respond positively to one of them. This blog is mostly run on reactive criticism, and there’s no shortage of rubbish against which to react e.g. Patsy on choice in delivery suites and the Mail’s misleading report here . But he’s looking beyond such rubbish today.

As anonymous has said eventually you have to stop criticising and suggest positive alternatives. So in this piece I want to do just this.

(And I do wish anonym users would at least number themselves off so I know if there were one or more voices on the blog! I’m more mellow now though as the olanzapine works very well, thank you, and Dr Rant has at least 11 voices in his head!)

Now any argument is usually made in two parts, namely what is wrong with what has gone before and what is right about what is to come. Philosophers (and bloggers) are much stronger at criticism of what is wrong than they are at saying why what is right is so.

To get the NHS right we first need to stop several things. These have been discussed on here before and it is sufficient here to say that,

The NHS needs to stop:-

-Patsy Hewitt
-Tony Blair
-Gordon Brown
-Andy Burnham
-Liam Bryne
-Lord Hunt
-Sir Liam Donaldson
-Spin doctors being preferred to medical doctors.
-Wasting money on PFI
-Wasting money on management consultants
-Wasting money on managers
-Wasting money on redisorganisations
-Wasting money on computer projects
-Wasting money on useless wheezes such as walk in centres, "">independent sector treatment centres
-Wasting money on stillborn administrative idiocies
such as practice based commissioning and payment by results (which are arcane concepts, even to their authors.)
-Wasting money on useless ideas such as “choice” and “choose and book”
-Wasting money on NHS direct
-Wasting money pandering to the “worried well” rather than those who are sick
-Wasting money on clinical governance
-Wasting money on arm’s length QUANGOS such as NICE and NPSA and the modernisation agency
-Wasting money on unused and unwanted “guidelines”
-Wasting money paying out negligence claims
-Wasting money and peoples’ lives in useless schemes such as MMC and MTAS
-Wasting money training midwives and physiotherapists for no jobs at the end of their courses
-Wasting money on non jobs such as “five a day eating co-ordinators”
-Wasting time on meetings that reduce hours to minutes, and their participants to tears.
-Listening to people who pretend to know something about healthcare but actually don't
-specifically Alan Maynard, Julian Le Grande, Paul Corrigan, Simon Stevens, Alan Milburn, Lord Warner, and the false expertise of spinmeister management consultants.
-Stop pretending that it can deliver all healthcare to all people
-Stop pretending that patients can have whatever they want
-Stop pretending that the NHS is in any way “patient centred” or “patient focused” (It isn’t, never will be, and never should be for reasons I’ll demonstrate in a future rant)
-Stop dealing with well people.

I predict that if we stop squandering money on the useless activities listed above we might find we have some spare money to use on developing a functional NHS.

The tragedy of the current NHS is that all the activities listed above and all the people employed in them could be sacked immediately and the organisation would get better, rather than worse.

There is much deadwood in senior NHS thinking and we’d be healthier as patients, as doctors, as taxpayers, and as a country without them. The tragedy of seeing all the billions of pounds in the NHS being wasted on the crap listed above breaks Dr Rant’s and the RCN's heart.

A map of what a functional NHS would look like:-

Dr Rant is a keen hill walker with over 200 Munros to his credit. He loves the detail of maps and knows well how to read them. He also knows Korzybski’s great statement, “The map is not the territory, it is a representation of the territory and useful in so far as it corresponds to the territory.” Dr Rant has stravaiged across many miles of NHS territory and knows well both the clarity of the sunlit uplands and the mess of the boggy valley bottoms in which most NHS work is actually done. Too many of the people who presume to advise on how to run the NHS work only from the sunlit uplands and have never had to deal with the messy mixed social and medical lives of real patients, hindered by late communications, inadequate information, shortage of time and resource that combine to make the average day spent treating patients harder than it need be.

There is no current map of what a functional NHS would look like. I now need to draw one and from this move to propositions for what the NHS needs to do to move towards becoming a functional co-ordinated healthcare provider.

1. I think we need to be realistic about rationing. The NHS is a great system as far as it goes. However at root it is a £1500 per person per year compulsory insurance scheme. This will buy a certain amount of healthcare, but will not buy everything. No insurance can cover everything or buy everything, and all policies have exclusions. To pretend the NHS can do otherwise is misleading and logically futile. The NHS has sloughed off most dentistry, most chiropody, most long term geriatric care and most infertility treatment into the private sector. The promise of “Cradle to Grave care” begins to look ever threadbare, and the mendacity that goes into maintaining the fig leaves of cover intact is a waste of energy when the truth could set us free. We here includes patients, health professionals, taxpayers and politicians.

2. I think we need to realise that market mechanisms are anathema to any health service, and increase transaction costs rather than health gain. Julian Tudor-Hart has shown this by his life and work summarised here and here

The Dr Rant Foundation contains various shades of political opinion but even the bluest of them retain great respect for Dr Tudor-Hart’s vision of the NHS. Conservatism is often presented as favouring accumulation of personal capital (think “loads a money” pastiches from Harry Enfield, but then think Goldman-Sachs $16 billion bonuses under Labour!)

However Conservatism must of necessity value social capital as well, and although personal wealth is nice private affluence and public squalor is an unappetising combination. Health is one of the pillars of social capital, and extremes of income inequality such as those seen within USA and UK are actually very bad for health, both for the rich and the poor. Michael Marmot summarises the relationship well in Status Syndrome. Any health scheme must deal fairly and equitably with all members of society. It must do this on the basis of pooled risks.
To do other is a denial of justice

And the Biblical injunction is very clear, both in Old and New Testaments:-

“He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” (Micah 6:8)

And

“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” (Mat 10:8)

Providing a just health service is a deeply held moral imperative, derived from Judeo-Christian tradition, but few humanists would demur from this ideal. The current NHS reforms take us further than ever away from this ideal.

3. We need to distinguish between remedial treatment of disease from health generation and promotion (Salutogenesis) We should have a government ministry for salutogenesis, but the Department of Health should not be it. Doctors are experts on disease causation, diagnosis and treatment, and are rarely expert on health. The medical enterprise is devoted to remedial treatment of illness and disease, and this does not usually generate health, it simply returns a patient to the status quo ante, (at its best) and stops the progress of disease (sometimes) The NHS and the medical profession should focus on treating genuine illness and should resist attempts to increase its remit beyond this aim. There’s enough in this remit to keep doctors and patients busy. The current NHS is really not even achieving this core role adequately yet as some of the links above demonstrate.

The creeping medicalisation of all life is a form of madness that we will live to regret.Petr Skrabanek sounded the alarm, and I will sound it again now.

4.The NHS needs to work better across its interfaces. This might seem basic, but it is so basic that management consultants recommend sacking hospital secretaries and hospital executives are stupid enough to follow the advice. As Mayur Lakhani says, “interfaces of care are dangerous places for patients” and in the NHS the casually poor communication between primary care, secondary care and psychiatric sectors is a major failing in our care of patients. Simply getting these people to talk more to each other would vastly improve the running of the NHS. It would be good for both doctors and patients, making life easier, safer, and more enjoyable. I can write this piece and post it edited properly within 24 hours. You can read it anywhere in the world straight after. Meanwhile Dr X is writing to me today in my local hospital 3 miles away and the letter won’t arrive at my surgery until about 2-3 weeks later.

5. Access needs to be better. The current pattern of opening hours and clinic scheduling is about as modern as Jurassic Park and the graphics are less good. This doesn’t mean the same doctors working longer hours; it means the same doctors working rescheduled hours. An inaccessible service might as well not exist as far as its patients are concerned

6. Referral pathways need to work well both to get necessary referrals dealt with quickly and just as importantly stop unnecessary referrals from being made.

7. The importance of primary care needs to be appreciated. Barbara Starfield shows just why this is so. (Full essay on her contribution to come) The key thing to say here is that the patient’s care must be continuous through time, and through healthcare sectors. Systems that have well focused primary care with long term continuous supportive relationships between doctor and patient working as co-creators of the relationship will achieve better results than those which simply provide episodic reactive care (e.g. multiple visits to the emergency room) In the UK GPs are the last doctors who see the patient as a whole, in their life context. The acute hospital sector (at organisational level…some specialists are all too sharply aware of the idiocy they are working under) has largely given up thinking about longitudinal care for patients instead thinking in terms of “completed consultant episodes” and “procedures reimburse under the payment by results tariff.” Consultants are now encouraged to discharge everyone they can……which then results in the patient being referred back by the GP at a later date. (New patients are paid at a higher rate under payment by results than follow ups so this works to hospital’s advantage. That’s a great result of this system isn’t it?)

8. Everyone is entitled to good care. However the articulate middle classes always do better. No system will ever get round this inbuilt advantage that proactive people who can think, plan and act will always maintain over those who drift, react and panic.

9. Disadvantage accumulates with one problem leading to ever more social and medical problems. It’s called “Co-Morbidity” Doctors dealing with these harder cases need more time and resources. How a society deals with its weaker members, “the widow, the orphan and the resident alien” is a touchstone for its moral development. Currently there is much bleating about the topic, but no real shift of resources to help deal with it. And before Gordon Brown thinks it, making the rich get poorer through higher taxes simply makes beggars of us all!

10. If you want more than the NHS basics you will have to pay for it.


So what would the NHS spend its money on if it was a functional system?

1.Well qualified and trained professionals-
Nothing is as empowering for patients as an accurate diagnosis and speedy treatment. Good professionals will help achieve this.
As Red Adair puts it “if you think professionals are expensive you should see what an amateur costs!”

2. Communication
At all levels between doctors, patients, and relevant others. Hospital secretaries would rule the world and managers would be roasting in the Devil’s kitchen

3. Ensure continuity of care to provide better care to patients and to avoid unnecessary referrals (and their expense)

4. Speed of access to diagnosis and treatment.

5. Minimal management to achieve 1-3 above. Alexander the Great once asked the Cynic Philosopher Diogenes what he could do to help him. Diogenes replied with the classic, “Please get out of my light” The medical profession is asking the managers to do just this.

6. Right patient, right treatment, right time
Doing the job right first time would be simpler and safer than trying to sort out mistakes later. Treat patients well and put lawyers out of business.

7. If 5 fails get a reliable complaints system in place. No scape goating. No blame displacement. No management involvement.

8. Contracts in place to ensure the viability of long term patient-doctor relationships.
(The new GP contract signally fails to do this)

9. Prevent fragmentation of care. Fragmented care is less good, and more expensive.

Nothing I am asking for here is unachievable within present NHS spending. However the current political will is to squander the NHS resource on useless and expensive projects, rather than to understand or value the detail of individual doctor-patient relationships and see what is needed to allow those to work more effectively.

Until the NHS focuses its attention on the doctor-patient relationship and creating the context within which it can work better there will be no progress in developing the NHS.

Change and modernisation is not always for the best. The current unfocused blizzard of initiatives is utterly useless for managers, doctors and patients, and meanwhile basic simple improvements go unmade. What a total waste.

130 comments:

lost_nurse said...

"Hospital secretaries would rule the world..."

Amen to that. A marvellous piece, which nearly moved me to tears (damnit!). I may have to resort to a stiff drink, and then look out of the window for a while.

Well said - because we could have it, if we as a nation want it. I still take a certain amount of civic pride in this battered country's capacity for scoop and run, but the consequences of witless fragmentation are becoming ever more apparent. In our hour of need, perhaps old Flo herself will return (like King Arthur) - to dispatch mad Patsy and all her mendacious kind.

Frontpoint Systems said...

I will happily sign up to that prescription. Ok, one or two quibbles maybe but you got most of the detail right.

Now, how does one go about registering a political party? Because there is simply no other way that this is going to be implemented.

Anonymous said...

The status system is a critical barrier to equal care. GPs also seem to be rationing care and, in my experience, simply not responding truthfully to their clients (I would not carried away and talk about "patients" here - have to be extremely patient in the UK to get any care whatsoever. Docs could be better managers and thereby supplant the ones they hate. That's about enough for this small rant.

Anonymous said...

fps

easy to register a political party but harder to get people to work for it and achieve things .. the health system problems are fairly obvious to me if people with knowhow and goodwill really want change ........

Dr Muthaf Acka said...

Great post - the current situation has arisen from basing the UK health care agenda from the results of middle class focus groups in surrey.
Seriously get rid of the fuckin worried well non-one can say no bullshitology of HMG's NHS.

Dr Blue said...

Dr Acka,
Thanks for your comment.

I don't think the folk in the leafy suburbs have had a look in. The DH policy is to close all their nice old cottage hospitals- See Michael Mandelstam's book for full details.

The leafy home counties get a worse deal than Labour marginals at present. (I can get a reference for this if needs be but DH new building is mainly being made in Labour voting areas)

true blue said...

How spot on the Dr`s rant is. I know somebody who works(in non job) as a Project Manager on the 5 a Day scheme,lord knows what sort of salary this person earns but the average working day seem much shorter than others with numerous paid holidays no weekend work or evenings and expense account "jollies". Oops I mean`t to say "fact finding missions" or "team building exercises" All at the tax payers expense with a bit of lottery funding thrown in!
I can understand "lost nurse`s tears of frustration. I feel the only way to get rid of this Nanny State is to vote the B.....s out at the next election.Come on all you overworked and underpaid professionals, take some action now ! Make your protests loud and in public,you`ve been kept quiet for too long. Remember Bliars slogan 10 years ago? 48 hours to save the NHS !The only thing he`s saved the NHS for is to stuff it with "Non jobs" thus creating a guaranteed register of NuLab voters,and totally neglecting the professionals and patients for his own political gain.I need to go and have a lie down in a darkened room or better still a large Gin and Tonic,so cheers to "lost nurse",you deserve it!

Dr Andrew Brown said...

An excellent analysis, and all the better for being couched in moderate language. I understand why people are so angry, but the voice of sweet reason is more persuasive.

Anonymous said...

Best Rant ever!

Sounds like a manifesto for a Save The NHS party. I was in (peripherally) on some early work re PBR. At a meeting with DoH persons, mostly "health economists" with little grasp of clinical matters, many of us pointed out that there would be great opportunities for gaming via discharging patients from follow-up so that they could/would have to be re-referred as valuable new episodes.

This was ignored, but this is SO frustrating for patients and doctors.

chris johnstone said...

This is a very clear, concise precis of what is wrong the NHS (especially in England, but Scotland and the others will follow). The solution is very attractive, a clinical cry for clinical freedom to do what we do best with minimal bureaucratic interference. I heartly endorse all the recommendations. I waste a huge amount of time chasing results and letters due to miserable communication across care boundaries (I am sure hospital consultants suffer the same problems).
The question is whether we can do anything about about it and how we get government to take this seriously. There has been no true national debate about the future of the NHS. It seems to be accepted by politicians of all colours, but not the public, that market forces have to be applied across the NHS. If we do not get change soon it will too late. Keep Our NHS Public's document 'Patchwork Privatisation' ( http://www.keepournhspublic.com/pdf/Patchworkprivatisationexecutivesummary.pdf ) clearly shows how far down the road we are to a wholly private NHS.
As doctors we have huge influence and respect in the community. We have to get together and use that goodwill to force a proper public debate, to truly pressure government and put the NHS back on its original track. This posting would do very well as a basis for any manifesto.

Anonymous said...

I felt curiously optimistic after reading this manifesto, I agree with all the fundamental points.

The NHS in theory could be a world beater yet we have been brought to our knees, or worse to a state of cynical indifference by the constant tampering and goal post moving.

Many of the NHS bloggers, and more importantly my day to day experiences, convince me time and again that the kind of vision exemplified by Alyson Pollack could be a reality if Hewitt & Co were singing from the same hymn sheet - they're not, primarily because they do not have a scooby what it feels like to be doing a job standing on one leg, blind folded, and with one arm tied behind your back.

the A&E Charge Nurse.

Anonymous said...

@ dr muthaf acka
"get rid of the fuckin worried well"

This is the reason why your clients are getting really annoyed with the NHS doctors. You don't do yourself any favours with this vulgar ranting and raving. Sound like a bunch of immature lunatics. Who pays you - probably the "fuckin worried well" who probably pay hefty taxes and feel entitled to their 10 minutes of your time - though if they had "choice" -with this sort of attitude, they might choose to go elsewhere!

Dr Tom F. Dork said...

I agree with one of the anonymooses...perhaps your best rant, Dr Rant.

Tom

Dr Informed said...

This is the reason why your clients are getting really annoyed with the NHS doctors. You don't do yourself any favours with this vulgar ranting and raving. Sound like a bunch of immature lunatics. Who pays you - probably the "fuckin worried well" who probably pay hefty taxes and feel entitled to their 10 minutes of your time - though if they had "choice" -with this sort of attitude, they might choose to go elsewhere!

Who exactly is 'getting annoyed with NHS doctors' exactly?

I wouldn't put it quite the same way that my colleague Dr Acka put it, but in essence he's correct. What Dr Rant is suggesting is probably the only way that a collective health system can be sustainable, without bankrupting the country and deliver accetpable care to those in need.

I suspect that you are our usual 'anonymous' that wants a consumerised system. You have already been told that you can pay to be fawned over privately today if you so wish, buy you choose not to.

We must have a utilitarian system and get away from the selfish 'me me me' way of thinking. The worried well shouldn't regard themselves as having an 'entitlement'.

You would get all the little improvements in the 'interface' you crave if Dr Rant's manifesto was put in place - less stressed, happier, empowered and better utilised staff would certainly be more 'polite' to you, but would that make you healthier? I susect that it wouldn't make you happier either, because you'd find another perceived manner in which to feel victimised.

Dr Rant said...

Thank you all for your kind comments.

The team and I have been touched by the positive response thus far.

I would ask two things though:

1) Tell us you thoughts on the ideas presented, particularly if you disagree with anything - I would like to know why - I don't consider myself infallible (I'm not a politician).

2) Tell other people! We want to know their views as well. At risk of falling comically into one of my own traps.....

I call for a national debate on the NHS.

Stephen said...

Very good blog. Continuity of care is essential and we seem to be losing this to the "episodic doctor"

mens sana said...

This is a lot more positive than most posts on the NHS which are as you say more devoted to carping at what has gone wrong rather than finding solutions.

I am not however convinced by your statement that market mechanisms are anathema to healthcare. Its just that an artificial market in healthcare leads inter alia to perverse incentives

I think that private healthcare can benefit from a regulated market, but that there will always be great difficulty in the NHS participating, because it will be so much larger than any of the other purchasers or providers that it can effectively dictate the terms of the market, rather like Tesco. This may well drive down costs to consumers but may have a very undesirable effect on providers and on something more difficult to define, but perhaps the "character" of the way healthcare is delivered.

So I think that there is a place for the market in healthcare, but one of our great challenges is to define where it is and is not appropriate, and then to work out how to apply these demarcations without generating perverse incentives.

Oh and you haven't mentioned the consultant car park. Now that's a real priority

ChrisR said...

What a bunch of arrogant crap. And internally inconsistent, e.g. you say healthcare must be rationed but think NICE should go. What the fuck is the point of NICE if not an attempt to rationally ration spending?

And what the fuck is wrong with PFI – did you buy your flat/house outright or have you got a mortgage? If you have a mortgage then what is the difference to PFI?

This is the usual bollocks from public servants who think they have a right to be paid huge amounts by the tax-payer (£90bn+ this year), and can then tell us all to fuck off it we might suggest that we get something specific back for it. For instance, some of us stupid patients actually think it might be a good idea to be seen within four hours as A&E. And yes, I do know that “compromises care” (I have heard the war stories from docs) – but only in hospitals that are too lazy or too stupid to figure out how to do it right. And actually I would like to choose which consultant at which hospital I see, preferably at a time convenient to me. Why the fuck wouldn’t I? Particularly given the huge differences in outcomes – not that the medical profession is too keen on revealing that some consultants are crap whilst others are very good.

Nowhere in your rant do you address the key issue – doctors need to take responsibility for the system. They must be given the responsibility for delivering the treatment outcomes that we as a country want, within budget and within agreed time-frames. No longer can they go “I’m a doc, I don’t have time to manage” then blame it all on managers or politicians. No more “just give me the money and bugger off”. No more “I don’t do budgets”.

And if you want communication across boundaries, get off your arse and organise it. I realise this will be a shock to a doc – the idea of taking an initiative to improve the system, as opposed to treating what is in front of you is completely alien – but it comes back to responsibility. Who the fuck is going to make it happen if not you and your fellow docs?

Dr Pink said...

ChrisR,

If patients were all like you (selfish tossers who don't understand what real illness and suffering is), then I'd stop doing what I do right now.

Sadly, the 'real' patients are not noisy, opinionated, morons such as yourself, but elderly, infirm, poor people who don't have the time to write shit replies on blogs because they are too sick/busy working to feed their families.

Examples of your stupidity:

"And what the fuck is wrong with PFI – did you buy your flat/house outright or have you got a mortgage? If you have a mortgage then what is the difference to PFI?"

Dr Rant used the RBoS mortgage calculator to compare the loan with the PFI deals negotiated.
http://www.drrant.net/2007/01/asking-deck-chairs-to-rearrange.html

A mortgage costs £13b in interest, PFI costs £53b. So that's what's wrong with PFI. You. Fucking. Moron.


"For instance, some of us stupid patients actually think it might be a good idea to be seen within four hours as A&E. And yes, I do know that “compromises care” (I have heard the war stories from docs) – but only in hospitals that are too lazy or too stupid to figure out how to do it right"

So, you don't mind risking people dying so long as you don't have to wait more than 4 hours with a sore toe? I know, we'd like all hospitals not to be run by 'lazy' managers, but sadly they all are. Some are just better at hiding it then others.


"doctors need to take responsibility for the system"

Ha. Ha. You right wing freak. Central control, local responsibility. Shoot the people with no control for the failings.

Only a fucking retard who has no idea how little control doctors on the front line have would write this shit.

Anonymous said...

I would agree with a lot of the rant although the tone seems to be what Ralf Dahrendorf would call a desire for a better yesterday - and seems to ignore the political , technological or social reasons for the attempts at reform of our completely incompetant government ( or that the birth of the NHS was based on social cohesion and utopianism after the war which is no longer possible )Linked to this is that our political class has become an appartchik class who have no experience or skills in running anything - so dont think it will be any better under other party alternatives .

The world of doctor or health professional knows best and is capable of running or organising a complex system such as health care is sentimental fantasy - believe me I am a coal face doctor and I know how organisationally incompetant most of the profession is.

One disagreement is clinical governance - like you I would abolish the NPSA but safer and better quality healthcare is very important and the shame of the NHS is how bad our quality is and how much the professions ignore it

mens sana said...

I dont think you should be so hard on ChrisR. He actually made some fair points in among the abuse:

1) Doctors need to take responsibility for managing the system

2)Doctors need to be honest about measuring outcomes and allow patients genuine choice of consultant/GP-that is the best way to drive up standards

3)Doctors need to be proactive about initiating change in the system which we know doesn't work.

And he accepts the basic premise which is that doctors should be the ones driving the whole thing. We should be the ones with the drive and ideas. And currently we're not.

But FYI ChrisR the difference between a mortgage and PFI is that if the UK government borrows money to finance a hospital it borrows at a government interest rate (currently about 4.5% for a 30 year bond-how does that compare to your mortgage-the standard rate is now 7.7%) , whereas if a PCT or SHA borrows money for a PFI it has to pay significantly more-lets say 5.5%. So each PFI costs the taxpayer a lot of money (In this example a 100million pound PFI would cost over all 184 million if paid for by a government bond issue, compared to at least 205 million if paid for by PFI. Some estimates would put the incremental cost much higher). But the government likes it because it doesn't appear as government debt, so we look as if we still stay within Gordon's "golden rule"

Marcin said...

"market mechanisms are anathema to any health service"

That would explain why the french system works so well. Get back in your box, and confine your pronouncements to things where you have some actual evidence.

Dr Blue said...

Chrisr
Thanks for contributing.

PFI is like a mortgage, which you pay for many years, and then don't own the property at the end of it! Allyson Pollock demolishes the case for it thoroughly......and had to move rapidly from London to Edinburgh as New Labour aparatchiks sunk their teeth into her funding.

There's an equilibrium between public servants and those they serve. Neither side will get everything they want. Sadly it's a distorted market and done via the intermediary of an incompetent government. That's why raising expectations such as "choice" and "access" and then not putting the delivery mechanism in place is such bad politics. It pisses off the patients who think it's their right....and it pisses off the doctors who get blamed for not providing what they are not contracted to deliver!

Central credit and local blame is a new Labour solution to all problems. NICE is a useful part of this strategy as we saw with the herceptin fiasco- where PH was pushed by media clamour to authorise the drug before NICE even had paperwork ready.

You may be right that it is time for doctors to run the service themselves. I wonder if DH/ Whitehall has enough trust to appoint doctors to do this?

To anonymous just above
Thanks for contributing. I agree many doctors are organisationally inept. Sadly.

Also we do need quality control mechanisms in place. It's just I have never met any two people who had the same understanding of clinical governance, and I'm not sure that in its current form it achieves anything.That's why the Dr Rant team included it in our list of things to get rid of.

In current NHS there's much talk of quality, but when push comes to shove it's get the numbers through, often at the price of the quality.

Targets have unintended effects.

Anonymous said...

Marcin, I'm afraid an influential report by the 'High Council for the Future of Health'
http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?pid=S0042-96862004000300017&script=sci_arttext - does not share your unbounding admiration for the French health system.

Leaving aside the fact that the French spend a great deal more of their GNP on health [10.5 vs the UKs 8.1 according to 2004 OECD stats] - the report critised the French system for being 'overburdened, wasteful and in urgent need of overhaul'.

Not only that it lacked 'oversight and accountability' while for some reason the French consume 2-4 more times the amount of analgesics, anti-depressants and tranquelisers when compared to neighbouring countries.

The structural problems in the French system were cruelly exposed when 15,000 died during the 2003 heatwave, followed by further avoidable deaths during the flu and gasteroenteritis epidemic later the same year.

Yes, the NHS is far from perfect but it does have incredibly talented staff and, up until fairly recently, a fair amount of good will.
Sadly the latter is being strangled by the sort of pathological and never ending meddling that drives everybody who is actually trying to look after patients up the f**king wall.

Read the Rant manifesto again, carefully.
Does it strike you as the voice of a career obsessed fly-by-night, or somebody telling you exactly as it is ?

Think on young marcin before you put your foot in the merde again.

the A&E Charge Nurse.

Anonymous said...

There seems to be a significant degree of 'health envy' going on here!

I particularly enjoyed the irony displayed by macin who extolled the virtues of the almost bankrupt French system (without evidence) simultanteously berating Dr Rant for not producing evidence himself, when it's painfully obvious that he did!!!

Marvellous stuff. Keep it coming!

Dr Informed

mongoose said...

Chris R wrte..."doctors need to take responsibility for the system"

And Dr Pink responded... "Only a fucking retard who has no idea how little control doctors on the front line have would write this shit."

And here is the heart of it. Doctors can't "take" responsibility. It's not in their power to take it. Responsibility has been destroyed by targets and other sundry bullshit that has been introduced precisely to obscure responsibility.

Politicians could arrange to dismantle this nonsense and then medical people could manage the whole shooting match.

True, there's a lot of whinging and whining which is a bit much coming from folk earning a multiple of the average wage but that is more effect than cause.

More of the original posting and less of the reckless shouting is called for. Perhaps it's understandable but it does no good. Perhaps y'all could rename the blog "Dr Reason".

For what it's worth, I thought that the original rant was sensible and measured. I'm sure it's not perfect but it sounds a heck of a lot better than we have now. Perhaps someone should email the appropriate link to David Cameron. He's the one who will inherit this disaster.

Dr Blue said...

Mongoose
Thanks for your comments. We have let various outside organisations know of our manifesto.

Thay might be watching us anyway, but as one celebrity commented, "There's only one thing worse than being talked about....and that's not being talked about!"

Anonymous said...

Good comments. But this is a public service and all those who pay for it do have an entitlement to equal access - however stupid the NHS staff might think this is.

Anonymous said...

+ if the "worried well" are to be ignored is the ideal NHS medical system meant to favour those who have bad habits..... eat too much, exercise too little, crash their cars, smoke this & that, & generally indulge in substance & lifestyle abuse?

Dr Blue said...

We argue for equality of access as a basic part of a just health care system in the main article. It's one of the main reasons to keep NHS publicly funded.

We sometimes have to pinch ourselves to remember this when dealing with some spectacularly awful patients.

Sartre said "Hell is other people" Jesus would respond, "So too is Heaven"

Anonymous said...

Oh well said, Dr Blue!

Anonymous said...

Dr Blue. I have read it again and this Manifesto clearly does not argue for equality of access to NHS services. Dr Rant might try a glass of gin and a valium. Old fashioned but quite effective for ranting disorders.

Dr White said...

About the "worried well". I think all who work in the Health Service should reflect that in giving up control of the System while forced to retain responsibility for outcomes, most of us indulge in a degree of defensive medicine which necessarily helps produce the supplicant non-sick.
The well-worried are also increased exponentially by the idiotic new GP contract and rafts of nurse specialists, bravely going where no-one else has gone before to unearth bogus pathology. Having dug up theoretical risk factors, ably helped by an all too-willing drug industry, we then indulge in dangerous polypharmacy, for little proven return, at great expense to the Health economy and personal well-being.
We ARE part of the problem.
In wresting back control of the system, including self-regulation of both our working lives and disciplinary procedures, we could supply ourselves with the nerve to risk manager as she is meant.
We could relearn the ability to say no.

Marcin said...

So, the problem with the French system is that it isn't privatised enough?

Anonymous said...

Dr White. Well said again team! Having supped the prescribed glass of gin and popped the valium the measurable outcome for your team leader Dr Rant might well earn a warm welcome (reward?) from NHS colleagues as a suitably ill case for treatment. It was a remedy suggested to me by a specialist brother for low back pain - but since this is untreatable in the NHS (see Dr Crippen in The Guardian) it's sure to suppress ranting responses.

cramerj said...

If you are going to do all this best do it soon.
The heavy health needy right now are those born in the 30s
Born in the great depression , reared in the adversity of WW2, next bearing the post war austerity = they are used to getting short changed by life.
So do it now.
Well maybe that is what Nulabor is doing.

mens sana said...

"Well maybe that is what Nulabor is doing."

To quote Dr Punch:

Oh no it isn't!

Anonymous said...

Marcin

Would that 100% private system be like the one in the shitest countries in the world ? Like some of those in Africa, or 80% private like the good old USA, or India where outcomes are poorer than even NHS users - even for the rich.

The best health services are in Scandanavia - don't you think we should follow their models? Finland, Sweden etc?

And ChrisR

Mate, you haven't a clue. PFI makes you & I pay shite loads more money for 25 years, unable to influence management of the infrastructure, and at the end the building reverts to the private owner.

It's like paying many times more for a 25 year leasehold (with no extension rights) on a Chelsea townhouse than you would for a similar house with the freehold.

It's a way to keep government debt down, don't you see? It's off the books. You useless sick twat.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous2 & still looking for my password.

Yes, ppp - public private partnerships does shift financing "off the books" but it also can make more money available for other health priorities than accommodation - & shifts risk to the private sector. If done properly it should work..pity they don't build to best practice & provide ensuite single rooms & better hygiene - being better for occupiers & a better long term infection outcome I have read.

Back to the "worried well" I am biased by three family/friends who have died in the past 3 years all from mild symptoms not attended to (low back pain = advanced prostate cancer, & melanoma in a 30yr old) & a sudden heart attack - all in busy & productive people. Goodness knows how they would have fared in the NHS.

Dr Blue said...

Anonymous2
Sorry to hear about your family members.

All the things you describe are well recognised as being conditions where diagnosis can be missed. They are the "serious but rare" conditions that catch out doctors. Sudden cardiac deaths usually surprise everyone.

We're going to do a piece on the difficuties of diagnosis at some stage which will describe the problems doctors have with diagnosis and the balance we strike between investigating too much and investigating too little.

Dr Blue said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Anonymous2
Well one was a work colleague, another my son's best friend & the last a relative.

Still, it does change one's views on leaving the "worried well" to fend for themselves. These were all people who did not seek help due to similar views to Dr Rant. I don't know what the answer is either but all were certainly paying tax & contributing to the "public good." Mmmmm.

Dr White said...

Anonymous
None of the people you describe were the well-worried. They were the sick swamped by the well-worried.
Daft, dump diagnoses, encouraged by politicians and Big Pharma, kill.
This should be a surprise to no-one.
When I trained "Irritable Bowel Syndrome" did not exist. Now I am expected to believe that one in four adults "suffer" from this condition.
It is the clssic dump diagnosis, where a whole lot of people with nothing wrong with them occlude the few with bowel cancer.
The medical profession needs to address these problems and, the most common diagnoses in the Western world, "stress" and "depression", honestly and realistically so that the sick may be allocated the resources they need without a struggle to "prove" they are ill.
Allowing our professionalism to be challenged has allowed every bugger and his cat to imagine they can be a diagnostician. They can't.

Dr Mustard said...

I wouldn't describe anonymous' three unfortunate examples as 'worried well' either.

These are three exceptionally difficult 'stable doors to shut before the horse had bolted'. If we take melanoma as and example, I diagnosed one this year that had been diagnosed as benign by a private specialist - this reflects more on the diagnostic uncertainty than it does on my skill as a doctor.

It's all about maximising a doctor's chance of being 'benificent' but also of 'doing no harm'.

The current structure our system makes pushes us in the wrong direction, and society also encourages spurious illness behaviour in a small but highly significant minority.

This obviously worsens outcomes and devalues the NHS experience for the majority. It also angers those of us that deliver the service and care about what we do.

For a slightly abstract and very tongue in cheek example of what we mean by the 'worried well', click here

Anonymous said...

Good, now we are getting to the nitty gritty.

The worried well vs the latent life threatening [but undiagnosed] medical condition is one of the most important challenges for clinicians.

If we take one sphere where Joe Bloggs is called on to independently appraise the seriousness of the situation, namely calling an emergency ambulance, we can see time and again that there is abject failure.

Look at what Tom Reynolds has to say about the wasters who misuse/abuse the service, one Brummy even called an ambulance because he was having problems putting his trousers on - various reports suggest that as many as 70% of ambulance users could have tried alternative means to access services.
Apart from being prohibitively expensive and demoralising for staff it threatens response time to those who are in genuine need.

There seems to be similar pattern for A&E with huge increases in attendences in recent years.

This clamouring for immediate attention is making it increasingly difficult to attend to the more serious conditions.

So how do we get this vital message across without appearing to dismiss the views of those who actually pay for the NHS ?

Fundementally it is a matter of confidence; patients need to trust the medical profession, most do I think, but as I say sel- appraisal alone seems to be leading us to melt down, certainly in the emergency services.

the A&E Charge Nurse

Anonymous said...

Anon2

Dr White
Precisely. But all this ranting about people clogging up the NHS (or whatever public funded health system)must make access more difficult for those that do have problems but don't themselves recognise this.

Re ambulances - where I come from you would be charged the equivalent of 50 BP for a callout if it's not considered an accident so people take out an "insurance" for a fifth of this yearly which the ambulance service uses for training, equipment etc. Mind you, we have only recently got our first paramedic - often it's all local volunteers - and if the ambulance has gone to the nearest hospital 45km over the hills you just have to wait until it comes back! And there's no afterhours medical service for a community of up to 20,000 in holiday times, 2000 normally.

Anonymous said...

Anon2
They were treated as "well worried"

Case 1 Diagnosed by a GP with "arthritis"
Case 2 Waiting for an appointment with an orthopaedic surgeon so presumably "diagnosed" by a GP to get the referral for back pain (turns out to be advanced melanoma)
Case 3 Seen by a nurse (no Dr in country town), had BP taken and proceeded on holiday .. could have seen a GP in next town but obviously not warned of possible outcome.

Dr Rant may have concerns about dumbing down, nurse practitioners etc but the skills/concern/willingness to refer of many GPs are not too hot either.

And The Economist reports that GPs are to be given the responsibility for NHS hospital budgets. Mmmm.

Dr Mustard said...

And The Economist reports that GPs are to be given the responsibility for NHS hospital budgets. Mmmm.

Partially true, due to Practice Based Commisioning (PBC).

However, the responsibility for these budgets is currently held by people who haven't exactly covered themselves in glory recently, and they haven't been cheap.

Getting GPs to do it through PBC costs nothing in wages to the GPs, and they bring their accumulated expertise of healthcare with them (where none existed before).

PBC is one of the least malignant ideas in principle that have been thrust upon us, but it actually has very little support from GPs themselves - for many good reasons.....

Anonymous said...

@ Dr Mustard

Done some reading & looking for the article (which I can't find) it seems to me that self-employed GPs should not, in principle, be determining public facility budgets. But I also see this has, effectively, been the case for some time. Health Economists seem disproportionately (good word I've discovered in the debate) influential on the NHS policy?

mongoose said...

Dr Blue said... "We have let various outside organisations know of our manifesto."

There's only one you need. Sadly, and gawd 'elp us, it's the Tories. They don't need to spend huge piles of extra dosh. You guys will use the savings from not doing that long list of nonsense. They will love to be free from the expenditure ("Tory cuts") label. They will love to be free of the need to actually deliver the performance improvements. You guys will do it and we will all hold you to account. You ned to get your ideas over now before they have to start making polcy noises. A year or so from now it will be too late.

Good luck!

psychopharm said...

"Unlike family doctors in most other advanced countries, GPs in the NHS have long acted as "gatekeepers", controlling patients' access to expensive hospital care through their referrals for treatment. Now this insurer-like role is being widened and made more explicit as they become responsible for clinical budgets covering hospital care as well as some of their own costs." The Economist, "The Power Game" March 3 2007 p31. Worrying trend in my view.

Dr Mustard said...

GPs are gate keeers.

Not only are many tests completely unnecessary and expensive, but they are also dangerous.

For example, if we ordered a CT scan on everyone with a headache, we'd cause as many brain tumours as we diagnosed because of the radiation.

We are need a utilitarian influence somewhere. I personally think that any 'rationing' should be done by medically qualified people rather than insurance management monkeys.

Rationing is not a dirty word, and it occurs in every system to some degree.

psychopharm said...

Well maybe you need consistent criteria for "gatekeeping" because, unlike other countries, ordinary people do not really have any "choice" of GP once they are hoooked into a particular practice?

medical mishap said...

I think this Manifesto needs a rethink
1. The NHS is a large business poorly managed. The staff (you) are therefore ranting.
2. In any business the customer is always right and you, the staff, need to stop being so arrogant.
3. When McClinics arrive alongside Boots or wherever with smart young entrepreneurial Drs customers will go there for quick accountable service, even if at a price (which should be subsidised) because of the failings of the current GP setup.
4. GPs thought they were smart to take an extra lump of pay and cut down on their after hours services. The customer is always right and will insist on a better service.
5. GPs need to be more proactive about customer health and not simply ignore lifestyle problems, or be prejudiced against them.
6. Lets face it, Doctors represent all the undesirable traits in the wider population, even though they like to think they are somehow "better" and "wiser" .. like some in the general population some Drs are "better" and "wiser" but the majority are pretty ordinary.

Dr White said...

Lot of different things being bogusly conflated here to "prove" randomly related points.
The fact is that supply in the NHS continues to be controlled largely by medical, in particular doctor(however distanced by surrogates), time.
While this continues to be the case, and while bureaucratic requirements continue to escalate, individual errors in diagnosis are going to increase. As I said to my Appraiser, Quality Reviewer, Quality Inmprovement Scotland and sundry others..."YOU ARE STOPPING ME THINKING".
If this is to be our route, and MMC seems intent on not just stopping those of us who are experts from thinking but stopping the production of such experts, then rather than hanging individual error-makers, as is our way, we must create failsafe systems. I don't think this is possible in Medicine but for those of you who do,"Go for it".
While you are doing so, bear in mind that the area where expert-thinking has been most recently removed from the front line is out-of-hours care. Proxies with protocols here, are , as A&E charge nurse mentions, proving to be inadequate and dangerous gatekeepers.
"Experts do things differently. They do them better". Discuss

Dr Blue said...

Medical mishap,
I take a lot of your points. As you say the NHS is a badly managed large business, and the staff are very frustrated. It needs a rethink. This manifesto is part of the rethinking.

I don't think the relationship between patient and doctor is the same as that between customer and a business. That said we could get our service side better. Current NHS structures actively hinder us from doing this and this adds to our, and the patients' frustration.

Lifestyle is the patient's choice, and patients are free to take or ignore advice from any source.

Finally as you say doctors are a cross section of society and have the usual range of human good points and bad points.

medical mishap said...

@ Dr Blue

But, as argued elsewhere, your Manifesto seems to give precedence to the "really sick" - most of which is due to poor lifestyle choices in terms of alcohol, tobacce & other drugs, inactivity, bad diet etc .. at the expense of those who pay their "annual insurance" via taxes and are to be ignored as worried well. Are they the ones who get the attention of the nurse practitioner and the deliverer of government subsidised CBT?

Dr Blue said...

medical mishap
I think you're using a different definition of the "worried well" from mine.

I think what we'd like to say on Dr Rant is that illness should be above a certain threshold of severity (pain, interference with life, likelihood of pathological processes) before they are worth bringing to medical attention. (We'll do a piece at some stage called "The perils of seeing a doctor.....and why you should only see one if you really are ill!")

To my way of thinking the worried well operate at too low a threshold, and panic/ seek help too soon. You can be a bit too careful at times. If you sit in a GP surgery or A+E dept for a while you'll begin to recognise this group of patients.

To add insult to injury as a doctor if you come to me too soon I'll say "you came too soon" and if you leave it too late I'll say "Why did you leave it so long?"

It's a game. In a cash limited NHS where patient, taxpayer and NHS resources are all finite the worried well are a bit of a nuisance. They take time and attention away from other more needy (iller) patients.

If you are a consultant in the local golden nugget seeing the worried well backed by private insurance then they are a very nice group to deal with. "It is the duty of the doctor to entertain the patient whilst nature cures the disease" said Voltaire. MRI scans, endoscopies and other tests can keep many doctors and patients happily entertained.

On Dr Rant the team do want a system that gets the illest patients investigated and treated quickly.

medical mishap said...

@ Dr Blue

You don't seem to have a definition for the patient who sees the Dr too late. I think that your Manifesto encourages this and it is unethical. You enter the territory of medical mishap here, as I see it.

medical mishap said...

Reading through your response again, I disagree that it is "a game" .. your rant is "a game" to the Dr Rant team. Real life is not "a game" and perhaps the NHS staff bring about their own misfortunes with this attitude? I am trying to be charitable here and don't believe in bad language to make a point ..........

Nursing Student said...

Humans as biological creatures will always show individual differences though, nor are any two patients always alike. Kudos to the Dr Rant team for their brilliant piece, it's a real breath of fresh air (unlike Patsy who talks hot air).

Dr Blue, a very good set of reply's if I may say so.

Medical mishap, I agree it can seem like we only want to see people who's arms are dropping off and patients who have tumors the size of a melon only. A minority of patients are indeed the worried well, and do use up the time of the medical services (Ambulance to take them, nurses to attend to them, doctor to diagnose/prescribe etc). Its about finding the happy medium to this. People who wait too long cannot always be treated, thoug I recall an advert about the misuse of the GP callouts a few years back. It was a Dr seeing to a patient with a cough. The screen went blank and the caption "This cough was fatal..." [cut to man with two kid's in kitchen serving food]
Little Kid: You Burnt them...mummy never burt them!
Screen goes blank with the word "Here". Basically, man with cough called the GP, who did not get to the ill women who dies. This, I admit is an extreame, but the dangers of reckless use of services were highlighted. This will need a debate on its own, as mentioned.

As for the drug/tobacco abuse, Nurses do hold smoking cessation clinics, and there are the drug and alcohol services operated by mental health trusts [dons tin helmet for fear of offending the doctors by suggesting nurse quacktitioners]. These could be perhaps developed further. As for more control, thats a tad totalitarian though. We are not here to set commandments in stone...
"And yey, the doctor spoke with a voice of thunder, and he bade the patients to listen. And so he decreed, that the 11th commandment would be forever that thou shalt not smoke tobacco".

psychopharm said...

Have we got to the end of this rant?

I look forward to a reply to my posts.

Dr Mustard said...

Psychopharm:

Well maybe you need consistent criteria for "gatekeeping" because, unlike other countries, ordinary people do not really have any "choice" of GP once they are hoooked into a particular practice?

That's a reasonable point, and I and the rest of the team are more than happy to 'compete' for patients with each other on a level playing field - not against a 'pump primed' party donating multinational or supermarket.

What I'm not sure about is whether any other country has got the 'gate keeper' role right. Make it too liberal, and the flood gates open drowning out those with genuine need. Too stringent, and those will genuine need will get missed!

What we have is a bit of a mixture of both, and inconsistencies arise because of time pressures and workload for GPs. This is poor management on behalf of the government really.

By and large, we do a pretty good job, and there is no evidence to suggest that British GPs are not amongst the best at doing what they do.

We could do it better though, granted.

Dr Blue said...

Psychopharm
The perils of practice based commissioning and the GP gatekeeper role deserve an an article of their own. We'll do an article on them over forthcoming weeks.

Medical mishap
There's a spectrum of patients from those who lose a leg and say it's a mere flesh wound to those who turn a cold into double pneumonia after one sneeze. On the whole I prefer dealing with the Stoics to the drama queens. That said the Stoics do sometimes come a cropper as they have indeed left things too late. However running "symptom awareness campaigns" to convert the stoics into gibbering anxious wrecks is an appalling strategy. In practice most patients arrive at my surgery at a reasonably appropriate time.

To DK and Tim Worstall (you'll need to visit their blogs) we know that you see market mechanisms as the most likely salvation of the NHS (or its successor) We're not so sure they are but we'll need to take time to make the argument thoroughly and carefully.

To all the respondents
Thank you for your responses. We'll get a lot of ideas for follow up articles from them.

Marcin said...

Anonymous with the potty mouth, I think we should copy the French who have excellent outcomes in their privatised sector, where the state pays the costs. I also think we should copy Scandinavian countries, which have elements of privatisation in their system. If you can be bothered, click this link to my thoughts on privatising the NHS, and note well the differences from the USA.

ChrisR said...

Some responses:

1. The headline rate on PFI debt is a bit higher than the rate the Government can borrow (via gilts) - maybe now 1% (although the Government is squeezing this all the time). Thus it appears more expensive to borrow via PFI. However, this is not an apples and apples comparison. The reason is that the commercial rate factors in the cost to the banks of default, i.e. if the contractor has underestimated the cost of the scheme and consequently goes bust they don’t get their money back. The Government rate does not – if the NHS has underestimated the cost of the scheme, it doesn’t go bust - the Government just keeps on paying. The classic example is the Scottish Parliament – cheap Government debt, but a 10 times cost over-run.

2. The point about off-balance sheet borrowing is perfectly correct – the Government clearly did try and keep most projects off-balance sheet. However, due to the ONS more and more are coming back on.

3. At the end of a PFI contract, the facility may or may not revert to Government ownership – if it doesn’t, the contractor has to factor in any proceeds he expects to make from selling it and reduce the charges accordingly during the life-time of the deal.

4. Allyson Pollock is a Unison shill. She takes their cash and spouts what they want to hear. Her faults are many, but one of my favourites is her comment that we shouldn’t consider the huge Jubilee line extension over-runs to be down to crap public sector procurement. Oh no. In fact they were due to the ground in south London being a bit soggy, as even the Victorians knew (see THE PRIVATE FINANCE INITIATIVE:
A POLICY BUILT ON SAND, Oct 2005, published by Unison). Of course, the ground conditions had bugger-all to do with it – the problems were elsewhere (actually with the moving block signalling system that LUL foolishly tried to introduce, which didn’t work then and has never worked since).

4. Almost ever doctor I know says that they don’t want to manage: they don’t want to soil their hands with budgets, procurement, planning, system design, non-medic recruitment, data collection, etc etc etc – all the things necessary to keep a £90bn, 1.3million employee organisation running. To be fair, they often say that because they fear it will reduce their time with patients.

But what do they expect – if they won’t manage it, someone else needs to. So we end up with “professional” managers – who are generally less clever than the medics (given than to get into med school you need to be at the top of the tree academically). So the docs look down on them. And we end up in a mess.

The only solution is for doctors as a whole to stand up and say that they will manage the system, they will take responsibility for doing so and will deliver the outcomes that taxpayers can reasonably expect. Increasingly this is starting to happen – see CancerPartnersUK.

The model docs need to think about is the other professions – lawyers, accountants, engineers, etc. In none of these businesses is there a parallel management track – they are run by the lawyers, accountants or engineers who work in them.

5. Someone mentioned the sore toe in A&E as a reason for not having the four hour target. Get a triage nurse and send them to GPs that work alongside the acute trust, either co-located or elsewhere. Or whatever solution you prefer. The point is, address the problem by thinking about making the system better, not just reacting.

Dr Blue said...

Chris R
Thanks for that. The question you pose is an intersting one. Will doctors rise up and take on the management?

To some extent practice based commissioning (PBC) asks this question of GPs, and the arguments for engagement with PBC are along the lines of your response.

I wonder if the salvation of medicine would be for the profession to become semi-detached contractors (In both GP and hospital settings)from the organisation they work for.

The alternative of ending up as a paid employee of a PCT or medical megacorp. is too horrible to contemplate.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations to Dr Rant, the team and the comment contributors for an excellent thought provoking and sensible article largely free from the usual distracting offensive language. I hope that this will move on and enter the wider arena of a much needed public debate on the NHS and its future.

Can I ask the team what plans they have to encourage this to happen?

medical mishap said...

@ Dr Blue

I think the concept of independent contractors is one worth pursuing (having worked in this capacity both in and outside the health shere myself over the past 20 years) .. though I thought this was, essentially, the business status of GPs under the NHS? Medics need more discretion to sort out the needy poor to make sure they get the help reqd. Some good points also being made on the Dr Crippen site on these matters.

medical mishap said...

@ nursing student

Get your points but there has to be a better way and what better time to discuss it than now!

I like Dr Blue's term "Stoics" - we really need to make sure that the Stoics do get a fair trot because they tend to be worthy folk who do lots of voluntary work etc and deserve help. I just don't like seeing them fall thro the system, as it were. It would be good if the Dr Rant team invited the enthusiastic David Cameron to put a comment on this thread. Put a request on his site? Happy to be quoted with this request.

medical mishap said...

Silly me. I will do it!

Dr Rant said...

Medical Mishap asked:

It would be good if the Dr Rant team invited the enthusiastic David Cameron to put a comment on this thread. Put a request on his site?

We have asked Mr Lansley and the legendary Boris Johnson MP of the Telegraph if they would be so kind as to read our thoughts.

(Not all of us are natural 'Telegraph readers', but their coverage of the recent Junior doctors jobs distaster has been absolutley spot on).

If we can encourage debate on the future of the NHS, and also challenge traditional left/right dogma, then we will be happy.

medical mishap said...

I am working on putting a request on webcameron but so far they do not want to know me. But I am a persistent and annoying person by nature and will keep on trying.

medical mishap said...

I have sent a request to David Cameron and await his response.

Anonymous said...

wow u reacted to humble old me?

good to see you think about some suggestions

sorry ive been busy/not mch time now

i think we could probably solve it over a few pints or bottles

i still think yo fundamentally need patient empowerment to create an environment where all the health providers follow wherever the patients take their money, and force the providers to do what the patients want (from opening clinics in the evening/weekend, through to allowing access to consultants and not nurses etc), nothing you have described has they inbuilt force for change and improvement which end customers taking thier money to a better/newer/quicker/cheaper/whatever treatemet brings

anon 1 aka no one

Dr Rant said...

You still haven't explained how any of this pandering to your wishes will improve your health!

It will be expensive and you'd end up with an even less sustainable system.

In the end, your doctor on the whole knows what's best for you even if you don't - and a good GP will tell you even if it's not what you want to hear.

Anonymous said...

bit busy right now :)

but look there need to be sytematic in built incentives and motivations for any enterprise to evolve and improve and optimise itself, free market does this to some degree using money as a way of optimising negotiations, nhs only really has a piss poor complaints process and politics, your suggestions do not build in deeply easy simply bottom up ways of ensuring continual adapting to changing circumstances

if patients help the purse strings in much more practical ways you can be sure appointments would be offered sooner in quicker times, and general attitudes would change from the "were doing u a favour" etc, the places would be cleaner

end consumer empowerment is the only proven way of allowing efficient consumer facing businesses to flourish, and to quickly kill the bad ones that do none of us any good, your idea of a super improved complaints process will never be as efficient as a customer walking to a competitor with minimal fuss

anon1

Dr White said...

Anon 1
"End consumer empowerment is the only proven way of allowing efficient consumer facing businesses to flourish and to quickly kill the bad ones"
What are you like?
The end-consumer is unfortunately not a standard unit. Mr middle-class hernia will all too easily find the efficient consumer facer you fondly envisage. Mrs multipathological, mild dementia, off her legs, may have a harder time of it. Mr Mad as a Hatter may well make somewhat inexplicable choices. MS mentally disabled will do allright while her poor parents have the energy for the struggle. After they are dead she's stuffed.
"Patient empowerment" involves an abdication of professional responsibility for the more vulnerable groups with special needs, unable to articulate them themselves, that is so obvious I should not have to point it out to anyone.
It's only in a selfish, sod 'em society that I would have to.
Market forces applied to medical care are alien to a civilised society and should have remained so. They have become a crass substitute for trust in professionals. Trust we have abandoned well before the end of its usefulness at the slimy behest of devious politicians.
Crazy.

Anonymous said...

dr white

i have some sympathies for your concerns, and for genuinely vunerable folk i agree extra measures and safegaurds should be in place, however for the vast majority of routine stuff and ordinary punters the patient should be able to take his business elsewhere if the provider cheeses him off for one reason or another, for instance if im in a clinic and its too dirty for words i should be able to walk to a competitor clinic, this is called competition and it may be imperfect but it works

your arguments hold equally true for food and other essentials, and we mostly manage to feed our needy folk without forcing the providers to provide the same bread to everyone, and with some competition, if we nationalised the food industry you can be sure i would end up like the nhs with ministers telling us how good it is and starvation is practise

anon1

Dr Rant said...

however for the vast majority of routine stuff and ordinary punters the patient should be able to take his business elsewhere

The vast majorty of this is what we can self-limiting illness and will get better whether or not you get some sympathy from someone who you regard as a glorified plumber. Encouraging and giving succor to spurious illness behaviour would further mask genuine need.

Also the food industry analogy is fatuous in the extreme, and you know it.

Everyone knows how to exchange currency for food, what food to buy and which hole to shove it in when they get home. There is no corresponding innate health awareness in humans, and there is a significant degree of dangerously stupid and selfish health ideology in some.

What I'm trying to say, is that people like you need protecting from their desire to 'consume' healthcare to some degree, lest your health seeking behaviour damages you, other people as a consequence and ruins the economy.

FFS, there's even a private GP service in Cardiff - £70 for 20 minutes, and the receptionist will fawn and simper to your heart's content.

Anonymous said...

Re “The vast majorty of this is what we can self-limiting illness and will get better whether or not”

Mmm is it? Sure there is far too much of nonsense walking through a GPs front door, and probably a small token payment should be introduced to force people to think about whether they really should be there, but surgeries being awash with such crap upsets me as much as you for if I’m at the docs there is a real important reason – I’m one of those at the other extreme who really needs to be in dire circumstances before seeking a docs advice

And I’m not sure what this has to do with allowing competition to get the places cleaner etc

Re “Everyone knows how to exchange currency for food, what food to buy and which hole to shove it in when they get home”

oh no they don’t, many of our needy folk have little idea how to feed themselves, and even more what to feed themselves, does this mean we should have monopoly bread production? I don’t think so

re “What I'm trying to say, is that people like you need protecting from their desire to 'consume' healthcare to some degree, lest your health seeking behaviour damages you, other people as a consequence and ruins the economy.” You are stereotyping me into completely the wrong group of people, my lack of access to healthcare costs the economy stacks cos everytime im held waiting for the mass of folk wishing to discuss their “self-limiting illness” and similar its costing this country a lot in missed earnings etc

re “FFS, there's even a private GP service in Cardiff - £70 for 20 minutes, and the receptionist will fawn and simper to your heart's content.” Im not in cardiff? You trying to figure out where I am from my ip and failing? Its only 59 quid to see a private GP in London so the market in Cardiff is obviously not as open as it could be, I don’t want a receptionist to fawn I just want civil polite service thanks

Dr Mustard said...

I can assure you that we couldn't trace your IP address, even if we could be arsed! The Cardiff Private service is featured in today's issue of GP magazine, and was for illustrative purposes only.

We have established already that there is plenty of private GP service available near you. PLEASE use it and stop carping. You can pay your nominal fee without having to use the same waiting room as all those people you hold in such contempt (who are statistically more likely to have disease, and less less likely to present to a GP, and would be even less likely to do so if they had hand over their fags and booze money so that little Keesha-Jade can see a GP).

Anonymous said...

re "We have established already that there is plenty of private GP service available near you." no you have not, although there probably is where i am now, there certainly was not where i have just left

re "PLEASE use it and stop carping." why? this site is full of docs carping, you need to feel it like a patient a bit more

re "You can pay your nominal fee" i already spend quite a lot on the nhs and private medicine thanks

re "without having to use the same waiting room as all those people you hold in such contempt" i dont think i hold anyone in contempt, i think it is reasonable to be concerned when surrounded by the local violent criminals in a medical waiting room

re "who are statistically more likely to have disease" well if they want sympathy from me they need to stop being the local violent criminals, otherwise i dont think their problems should be allowed to slow down medical access for the tax paying hard working majority

re "and less less likely to present to a GP" id love to see some evidence for this, inner city waiting rooms are always full of them as far as i can see

re "and would be even less likely to do so if they had hand over their fags and booze money so that little Keesha-Jade can see a GP" good, let natural selection do its work instead of being reversed

youre far too negtive towards me, when at heart my comments reflect the experience of many daily in the nhs, and our frustration at how crap it is

Dr White said...

Anon 1
The analogy with food delivery is a simplistic non-contribution to Health Care debate and you should know it.
The "vast majority of routine stuff" you are planning shall hawk itself around competing clinics; who exactly is going to decide, when, that this stuff IS routine? In the absence of a competent diagnostician early on in the game, you risk a severe case of putting the cart before the horse and ending up with a badly-flawed, dysfunctional, delivery system.
This system operates in the States. Punters self-diagnose and drag themselves around different specialists predicated on their perception of their needs.
Expensive over-investigation, duplication of effort and, overall, an earlier death than that provided by our own, much cheaper and, crucially, more comprehensive service.
Be careful what you ask for, but more importantly, be sure you are doing the greatest good for the greatest number...not just getting what YOU want?
I'm don't much care if a medical service pats me on the head, holds my hand, are cuddly or toe-curlingly polite Though if I have a preference it would be human in all its technicolor reality every time.
I am looking for expertise and efficiency, with or without knobs on.

Anonymous said...

why oh why do u keep worrying about how crap the US system can be?

why not look at how good the medical systems can be in many other parts of the world, certainly putting the uk in the bottom quartile of the devloped world

yes i want improvements for all not just me, but you know i have fairly wide experience of how my family and friends have been treated in the uk in different parts of the country

i like the model in auz/new zealand where there is often multiple "minors" clinics in competition, triage by a doc, quick referal to hospital if needed, easy same day access to GP, etc

i like the GP model in Italy or Belgium where if you ring a GP you can see one in an hour or two even for the most minor of stuff

its not impossible

Anonymous said...

oh yea and early deaths in the US probably has more to do with their poor diet, lack of footpaths leading to no excercise, and other simple stuff totally unrelated to the medical industry

Dr White said...

Anon
No sugar the overall early death rate in the States is due to 60 million people being unable to afford the most basic medical care.
We take access to Universal Health Care so much for granted we want it singing with bells on.
As to the rest of your wish list...
"An ideal once achieved is no longer an ideal"
"What hath come to perfection perisheth"
Chose one and discuss.

Anonymous said...

re "the overall early death rate in the States is due to 60 million people being unable to afford the most basic medical care."

what bollocks, i lived in chicgo for years, i lived in pittsburgh for about 6 months, i had lots of poor friends, ive seen where you go in chicago if you have no money and need medical treatment, and bad news for you i dont have to listen to the labour party nonsense I HAVE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES, poor folk in Chicago get much better medical treatment than anyone in the nhs in the uk, and the supermarkets sell generics of all the major heart medicines etc much cheaper than youd think

if you want a straight debate of current US versus current UK, i think you will loose big time, speak to some US docs working with poor patients you will be surprised

but remember i advocte a model closer to the best places such as italy, new zealand or belgium ang not the usa

Dr White said...

In Italy there are 6 doctors per 1000 population compared to 2.3 per 1000 in the UK. Until August that is when we are apparently going to be able to manage with thew odd ten thousand less juniors. Can't wait.

Anonymous said...

theres more to the differences between the uk and italy than that im sure

and yet you lot continue to protest that its all the politicians fault and the doctors are held back from doing great stuff

really have you seen how crap some doctors working in the uk are? obviously so to anybody... even basic stuff they cannot get right? and yet what does the medical profession do to systematically sort out this situation? sweet nothing

thats right the body of docs does nothing to sort out their own weak members

now how long would some of these people be allowed to practise in italy? ill give you a clue... about half an hour after another doc spotted how dangerous they were they would be stopped

so really dont bleat on about numbers, the failures in the uk are much deeper and much moe serious than that

complete breakdown of leadership and normal professional behaviour

and yes crap politicians and patients with no say in matters at all does nothing to help

Dr Rant said...

thats right the body of docs does nothing to sort out their own weak members

now how long would some of these people be allowed to practise in italy? ill give you a clue... about half an hour after another doc spotted how dangerous they were they would be stopped

so really dont bleat on about numbers, the failures in the uk are much deeper and much moe serious than that


That's one of the biggest load of bollocks you've ever spouted! It's all so wide of the mark that I'm even going to bother.

You are obvious either an expert on 'Professional Regulation' and 'Italian Clinical Governnace', or you are 'reactionary, self pitying, Daily Mail reading, right wing Wanker'

My money is on the latter.

Anonymous said...

come on most docs will happily tell you over a pint (if you know them well enough) about the handfull of dangerous docs or consultants working in their area, when challenged to why they never formally do anything the responses are sad and tell you everything you need to know about the uk medical business

you know you need radical step change improvements, your profesion should do some anonymous shopping to independantly monitor standards etc, really there are thousands of ways things could be improved

and as ever i get the feeling the folk on here just dont understand the magnitude of crappness of some of the folk working as docs in our inner cities, it would make a great undercover tv show, im surprised it has not been done, it would make exposing dodgy plumbers look so minor

Dr Mustard said...

when challenged to why they never formally do anything the responses are sad and tell you everything you need to know about the uk medical business

That happens in every country to some degree, and there is no evidence that is either common, or more prevalent in the UK.

If you want an example of a whistle blowing doctor from an inner city, and the shite he got into as a result google search for 'Dr Anila Reddy' - he's even got an foreign sounding surname!

As in most cases, justice requires the provision of 'evidence'. Unsubstantiated claims against colleagues are generally regarded in a poor light, and leave you open to proceeding yourself.

Anonymous said...

yes but there are positive ways of addressing continual improvement, the best (modern) professions do this quite well, including peer feedback, anonomous shopping posing as customers, reviews of samples of handiwork etc etc etc

evidence? lots of crap docs in many a inner city uk practise, only great docs in typical inner city italian practises, may not be very scientific, and based on only one small number of peoples experiences, but id be surprised if it wernt sustantiated if someone cared to do some more studies

u sound like someone telling me buzz aldrin walked on the moon in a pinewood lot cos u aint seen enough evidence

Anonymous said...

just looked up the 'Dr Anila Reddy' stuff

good for him

ive done similar myself, in a totally different business granted, but sometimes good people have to do these things

shame the target was atos, having seen an nhs walk in centre i can tell you that they should be shut down straight away, talk about out of their depth nurses being arrogant, nurses do indeed operate without protocols and outside their limits of experience in nhs walk in centres, coventry pct walk in centre springs to mind, dont remember any docs complaining about that, probably cos many of the local docs are fucking useless also

i dont think we are that far apart on these issues if we just listened to each other

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