Thursday, May 31, 2007

“If Tesco can open till midnight every night, why can't our GPs open till midnight every night?”


At Dr Rant we suspect Mr MacKinnon may well be right that further OOH tragedies will occur. Despite all the wisdom of hindsight and regret it’s doubtful any lessons will be learnt. The fall out from such cases is one of the reasons GPs mostly avoid OOH work now.

Firstly we will express our sadness for the death of Penny Campbell. Whether as doctors we would have done better than those who did treat her we do not know. Dr Crippen discusses things well here. I’d echo Dr Crippen’s respect for the “rule of threes” which basically states “first time you see a patient you can do anything, second time you must get it right and if the patient presents for a third time you need to ask someone else (usually a consultant).”

However Mr MacKinnon asks a very good question about GP opening hours, and it seems worth a go at answering it.

There’s a simple reason why TESCO stays open so long. It gains a profit margin from it. Or it finds it needs staff on 24hours a day to accept night time deliveries, and restock stores, and decided to pay a few check out operators to work whilst all the deliveries are going on. So it may be an example of fringe costing, that expands availability, improves the service, at very little cost to TESCO and gets some extra revenue in. Whatever TESCO’s exact economics, they clearly gain from their long opening hours. But their income comes from the pockets of consumers who make the choice to shop with them.

Some weeks ago we published a piece on “The NHS: What is to be done?” Mostly the reaction was favourable, but two comments from right wing observers criticised us for rejecting market based solutions to the NHS’s problems. This criticism prompted Dr Rant to read more widely about economics and see whether he could make sense of their criticisms. He read John Kay’s book “The truth about markets” We don’t think that the NHS “internal market” bears any relation to any real market.

Now from this book Dr Rant learned about the joys of disciplined pluralism and order emerging without design. The risks of any enterprise should be spread throughout a population in a series of small scale experiments, frequently reviewed and with disciplined review of results. The joy of such systems is that they cannot stay too wrong for too long or they go bust. Also even if one enterprise goes bust, it doesn’t take the whole lot down with it.

The NHS is clearly not such a system, and it is probably best described as a centralised, bureaucratic monolith that measures its tractor production quotas each year for Comrade Splatzy to produce at the annual party conference.

John Kay’s book is excellent on the problems central bureaucracies have with getting supply and demand balanced by conscious means of measurement, commands and controls. The medical analogy could be diabetes mellitus. In most of us (those without diabetes) we can feed variable amounts of sugars to ourselves and the pancreas will produce just enough insulin to handle this sugar. Our blood sugar level will stay between 3 and 8 mmol/l. We don’t know this is happening, we can just take it for granted. Everything functions fine.

In the diabetic population the pancreas stops working, fails to produce insulin and therefore the patient has to administer their own insulin. What we find is that even with the best monitoring and control the blood sugar goes either too high or too low (hypos) Conscious monitoring is a poor substitute to the pancreas working normally, it takes a lot of effort, and is far from a smooth process. Supply of sugar and demand for insulin are never all that well balanced.

It’s a bit like the NHS. Sometimes too little. Then too much. Wild swings from feast to famine and back again.

Now to get back to Mr MacKinnon’s question, “If Tesco can open till midnight every night, why can't our GPs open till midnight every night?”

Now if GPs were true businessmen some of them would be trying things like longer opening hours. They might find they made some extra income and profit for their efforts or they might find there wasn’t really any demand for the service. However one or two practices would innovate, some practices would be early adopters and some would be late adopters and some would retire or go bust.

But GPs are hamstrung by a fixed central contract. The PCTs are hamstrung by rules. They can convene committees and meetings for hand wringing, but they don’t have authority to try things out. Nor do they have agreed criteria for success and failure of pilot projects and the NHS endlessly insists that “the views of all stakeholders must be considered” which means that no one can make a decision for fear of offending someone else. Passive aggression gets people to the top of such organisations as they can manipulate fear without appearing to do so. “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.”

So there is no room for small scale experimentation in most surgeries. And at the Macro level there are only fixed numbers of GPs available, and it’s a slow process even to get basic GP training completed (10 years minimum from med school entry to independent practice). So even if they the existing GPs have lots of slack time to spend on new enterprises, they will tend to do this at expense of existing commitments. The problem is of making a scarce product go round. Even using nurse practitioners is only a partial compensation for the overall lack of GPs.

So the reason why GPs are not open to midnight is that they work in a monolithic centralised system, small scale experimentation isn’t possible, and fixed supply of money and resources leads to ossification of decision making processes. The status quo staggers on, and somehow it muddles through.

This misdirection of government monies in the NHS is currently appalling and when we, as voters, fully appreciate this we will make the government pay dearly for its mistakes. In primary care we could have had improved GP surgeries, longer opening hours, and better phone access. The money has instead gone to QOF, to walk in centres, to expensive PCT reorganisations and NHS redirect. It has been wasted rather than used to improve existing structures.

Government as usual thinks it knows better than those who work in the service and so it tries to bypass the GPs.

79 comments:

Dr Ray said...

I have struggled with this too in Radiology. We have patients waiting for scans and approaching £2m worth of equipment becoming obsolete and used for just a fraction of the day and not at all at weekends. We could do more scans at quite a low unit price but we would lose money on every extra scan we do. Payment by results might help but the independent providers are heavily subsidized (all set up costs and 80% of projected income guaranteed for 5 years and higher tariff rate) so will ultimately take away our work.
The only way out for us is to attract paying patients through uk-radiology - here the money really does come with patient, just like in Tesco, and like Tesco we can open evenings and weekend. It's a bit distasteful that these patients effectively pay twice for what they should already have easy access to but at least we don't charge them rip-off prices and still work to ethical principles. I am not sure I agree with Crippen, that there should be a fee at point of use but some sort of voucher system that the patient can spend whereever they choose would give real choice and reward the efficient doctors and departments.

Devil's Kitchen said...

But GPs are hamstrung by a fixed central contract. The PCTs are hamstrung by rules. They can convene committees and meetings for hand wringing, but they don’t have authority to try things out.

Absolutely spot on, Dr Rant, and the essential problem with the NHS. The difference between you and Crippen and, for instance, myself and Worstall is that you want to save the NHS.

We don't. We want to replace it with a market based system. I'm afraid that that is going to mean a period of adjustment for both doctors and patients, but we loony libs believe that the end result will benefit both.

At base, you will be returning to libertarian principles: two entities trade voluntarily because they are both better off. There are any number of other benefits too (note how private medicine has become cheaper over the years because of innovation and market forces).

I am afraid that you doctors will no longer have cosy sinecures, but you will have the opportunity to be rewarded for being good at your jobs.

DK

Anonymous said...

hey youre talking sense at long last

only when the patients can take their money where they dam well like will the dirty toilets, rude staff, outrageous waits, poor opening hours etc etc get sorted

this does not mean that the poorest go without care, there are ways of ensuring there is money there for their treatment, but also provide incentives for continual improvement

as ever i would point you at new zeland, italy or belgium as countries where its easy to get access to a good doctor quickly and simply any time you dam well like, and "walk in centres" are fronted by docs and not nurses, if these countries can do it why can they UK get it so wrong?

you also need to factor into your cost equations the lost productivity every time you waste a workers time for half a day for a simple appointment, if they are on a critical path of a billion quid project guess what the nhs is causing a billion quid project to slip, doesnt do the uk economy any good at all, and where the **** do u think the money for the nhs is coming from if not such projects and many similar larger and smaller up and down the land

Voyager said...

If we don't let the NHS ration are we shall have to use the American system of HMOs and Insurers.

Car insurance works so well here, no doubt dealing with a call-centre in India to see if the insurer will pay for patient X to visit Dr A or whether Dr A is no longer on the approved list for the insurer.


I recall having an East Coast HMO in the USA which required you to call for approval before treatment would be paid for....funny that, I dreaded the thought of an RTA in California and having to guarantee the hospital payment before the insurer was ready to take my call.

I do remember having bills from the local hospital with an invitation to be sued if I did not pay, simply because my New York health insurer was very tardy in paying.

Or in Germany where a list of doctors struck off the approved list would arrive in the mail, visit this doctor and pay the bills yourself.

Or the joys of a Bic Health Policy....use once throw away - when the policy covered one catastrophic illness ie. bills >$500.000 which covered one event and was not renewable thereafter


Oh the joys of being an empowered patient armed with a 'contingent gift-voucher.'

Voyager said...

If we don't let the NHS ration care we shall have to use the American system of HMOs and Insurers.

Voyager said...

If we don't let the NHS ration care we shall have to use the American system of HMOs and Insurers.

the A&E Charge Nurse said...

The Devil wants a market system for health, but adds euphemistically that there will be a period of 'adjustment'.

What, like the American carpenter in the opening of Michael Moores new film [Sicko] who must decide if he wants his amputated ring finger attached for $12,000 or his middle finger for $60,000 [presumably with no guarantees of successful reimplantation for either digit].

Don't forget the PRIVATE surgeon poo-poo'd the possibilty of post operative complications without ever examining Penny Campbell, or arranging for one of her underlings to do so, no, she had her holiday to sort out [priorities I suppose].

Incredibly, she has not been taken to task over her actions - the enquiry panel focussed almost exclusively on the primary care PHYSICIANS who were expected to clean up the surgeons mess.

I can tell you now that we see a steady stream of private patients who end up in A&E with post-op complications.
Once the cheque has been cashed the private providers do not routinely offer any form of emergency access.

And Robert Winston has been discussing the private sector IVF clinics who are laughing all the way to the bank after ripping off couples with fertility problems [rates of £4-8,000 per treatment have ben quoted].

It's rubbish to say that private medicine is cheaper, in fact quite the reverse.
GNP expenditure in all comparable countries using insurance based systems are considerably higher than the UK, and of course in the USA a substantial proportion of the health dollar goes into the shareholders pocket.

The profiteers must be rubbing their hands together, unlike the carpenter with the costly finger dilemma.

Anonymous said...

well at least the carpenter had some choice

he wasnt referred for an op to save his hand from the GP to hospital, only to be then seen by a pysio and not a surgeon, a physio who is so scared of the serious extreme of the condition then goes off the grab a surgeon who then agrees but says the patient must join the next list as normal, after another prolonged wait the patient then gets to see a surgeon who says "you GP referred you for finger X, but you need an op on fingers A, B and C also, you need to go back to your GP for more referrals, I wont operate on finger X cos itll be safer to do them all together" to then go back to a weeks wait to see a GP, to be put on a list to see a pysio again

of I think id rather be in the carpenters position, instead of having to pay anyways after being messed around by the nhs for more than 6 months, agreement from all the medics that its urgent, and the hospital putting out press releases about how short its waits are

and then of course you meet the private surgeon in the UK, who you have researched as one of the most senior and best in his field, and he openly lays out his heartfelt feelings about how junior the surgens are at the nhs hospital where originally referred and how they shouldnt be allowed to work as consultants with such little experience, and that he would never let any of them operate on his family

private surgeons often see their patients in the middle of the night if the patient has concerns, additionally bupa etc normally have a duty doc at each hospital through the night who you can consult in extreme if you had an op there recently, plus it is always recognised that there is no private A & E and yes the nhs gets the money for that so needs to front up the service, try ringing your nhs surgeon after an operation and see how far you get

and for the millionth time the US system is not the only alternate, there are plenty of countries doing it much better than we are!

The Shrink said...

A clear argument for a few compelling reasons why 24 hour GP availability (for routine primary care activity) is not viable.

I am afraid that you doctors will no longer have cosy sinecures, but you will have the opportunity to be rewarded for being good at your jobs.
- Devil's Kitchen
I take issue with this. How can medics be rewarded for a good job?
Notoriously hard to do.
Medics are not there to keep patients happy, making people happy is what clowns do. Thus, patient satisfaction measures whether what patients want has been addressed, not what patients medical needs have been addressed.

the a&e charge nurse said...

Agreed anonymous, the USA is not the only market but IT IS the one which epitomises the sort of market freedoms being called for by NHS detractors, such as your good self.

You say the carpenter 'at least had some choice', well lets say the injury was to his dominat hand - what sort of choice will he have as a 3-fingered tradesman competing for the next contract ?

I have worked in A&E for many years and it is absolutely nonense to suggest their is a role for a physiotherapist after a traumatic amputation.

You say claim that private surgeons see patient in the middle of the night, well they didn't in Penny Campbells case, and why should they when the cheque safely tucked away and they have their good friends in the NHS to sort out any tedious post-op complications.

Anonymous said...

re "their is a role for a physiotherapist after a traumatic amputation" i never said this

i was referring to a friend with extreme trigger finger, which was within a hairs breath of being permanently crippling, which affected multiple fingers, which would have made them equally unemployable, which only needed the cheapest and simplest of routine ops, but yes the nhs regularly triarges such patients with pysios even after urgent referral from gp direct to surgeon, and yes these surgeons do send the patient back to the GP for referrals for other fingers

this is a definite case equally disasterous to the patients life, and the nhs comes up very badly versus the quick much cheaper treatment which would be readily available in the US, and which other state sponsored schemes in other western countries would also solve quickly

you see the nhs does this to ensure the max number of patients die, move out of their area, or give up and go private, before they ever get to the front of the queue, and the additional waits for physio, and rereferrals from gp all lead to individual waits which look within the extreme boundaries of what is reasonable, but which together are totally unacceptable

i agree "what to do if you get ill a few days after an op" guidance for paitients from both private and nhs sectors could be made more clear, dont think either come out acceptable at the moment

re "patients want has been addressed, not what patients medical needs have been addressed." yes patient empowerment will not solve everything, but peer reviews, random samples of cases by fellow doc, etc could all help, patients would quickly drive up the quality of the stuff which is obvious such as waiting times and cleanliness if they had the money spend decision

Devil's Kitchen said...

The A & E Charge Nurse does love to deal in extremes, eh? And I would take anything made my Michael Moore with an extremely large pinch of salt: Bowling For Columbine was one of the most deceitful "documentaries" I have seen in an awfully long time.

No, what I favour is something akin to the French system -- a multi-provider, multi-payer scheme.

DK

Tim Worstall said...

Apologies that it's taken me so long. My views are a little more subtle than my original short post indicated. Very long, so here's the link:
http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2007/06/markets_in_heal.html

Tim Worstall said...

That link didn't come through. Apologies, no html skills.

http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall
/2007/06/markets_in_heal.html

the a&e charge nurse said...

Thanks Devil - may I draw your your attention to this,
http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?pid=S0042-96862004000300017&script=sci_artext
even the analgesic loving French recognise that their system is imploding under the weight of its own beurocracy.

You will see when the elderly body count hit 15,000 during the heatwave of 2003, it didn't take the Pink Panther to work out that there was something seriously amiss, and I'm not talking about EuroDisney.

And you are no doubt aware that the French spend considerably more on health than we do [all those different insurance schemes are not cheap to administer you know].

Give the NHS the sort of money thrown at health in the States or Switzerland, and we would have a world beater, providing Hewitt & Co can resist the temptation to sabotage the front line grunts who are really only interested in giving the best service for patients.

Anonymous said...

re "Give the NHS the sort of money thrown at health in the States or Switzerland, and we would have a world beater"

oh how we laughed

i think the new labour failed experiment of pumping billions upon billions extra in has proven beyond all doubt that pumping money in will magically make the nhs work fantastically or optimally or acceptably for patients is the biggest load of bollocks known to man

the nhs is EXACTLY like Mao's rice production, in every single way, centrally controlled, PR spouts great results, managers all encouraged to cook the books, and the people starving, and you sound like someone saying "if only they gave us better tractors like they have in the West we would become the best rice producers" well guess what it doesnt work like that

it needs local empowerment, to react to patient demands, customers who can take their money where they dam well want, and hospitals that will go bust if they fail to satisfy the market

only then will decent service emerge

and it will self optimise to however much the economy has available to spend on health, and people will prioritise themselves between different procedures, rather than the comissars deciding whats the fashionable thing to be treating adequately this month and who is left to die

Dr Rant said...

"it needs local empowerment, to react to patient demands, customers who can take their money where they dam well want, and hospitals that will go bust if they fail to satisfy the market"

I'm sick of facist market fundamentalist fucks.

The 'market' does not work for health care. There is no market. There never was a market. There never will be a market.

The market works as follows outside health care:

1. Companies need to make money in a saturated marketplace.

2. They create demand for a product using advertising and other marketing techniques.

3. They sell people stuff that they don't need.

That's the market.

Health care is not about 'I want'. It is about what patients need.

Health care is not about 'I demand'. It is about safe, effective, local services.

You can't make a hospital go bust without patients being harmed.

Medicine is about 'first do no harm'.

You can't make patients spend their money where they please, because patients have no idea what is good health care and what is bad health care.

Yes, middle class vocal patients will get cleaner hospitals, but medicine is not about upper middle class people with posh 4x4s who don't want to give up their important schedule to get their varicose veins done.

Medicine is about illness. And sick people, by and large, are too sick to 'complain', or vote with their money. They are often poor. They are often disadvanted and under-educated.

Fuck the 'I want, I want, I want' selfish bastards who go on and on about markets and money following patients.

Give the NHS the correct funds - which it has never had - and take away the private companies bleeding it dry and the central control from ex-marketing consultancy employees turned ministers for health.

Give the poor and the ill the treatment they need.

Give the people who don't have a voice good care.

Give the people who actually need help, help.

If Mr Businessman wants to be seen at 10pm so his company does not suffer, then his company can fucking well pay for a private GP appointment.

Right wing, facist, selfish, sick-hating fucks.

Dr Rant said...

Fascist.

My spelling suffers when I have to put up with selfish bastards.

the a&e charge nurse said...

Anonymous, can we at least agree that clinical pioneers in their respective specialties are trying to provide the best standards of care ?

Take the way acute myocardial infarctions are dealt with these days.

There are approx 250,000 heart attacks each year.

Back in the old days doctors were not quite so slick at recognising and initiating definitive treatment [statistically speaking], and even when they did therapeutic options were limited.

Nowadays, ambulance paramedics [Tom Reynolds et al] call the cardiologist DIRECTLY from scene, the cath-lab is put on standby and the patient does not even stop in A&E enroute to receiving primary angioplasty - what a brilliant service.

This is the sort of standard that could be applied to other areas if Hewitt & Co were not so hell bent on sabotaging the career of 10,000+ junior doctors, or shedding 20,000+ nursing posts.

NHS staff share some of the frustrations as well, don't forget we are service users as well as providers - but many of us still retain the rather quaint belief that health care should be a right, not something to be sold onto the highest bidder.

Marcin said...

So, Rant, if I may be so informal, how do we go from you talking sense about the market and government allocation of resources to insisting that there can never be a market for healthcare? It works perfectly well in France, and it works perfectly well in the USA for those with a lot of money.

Clearly, there can be markets in healthcare, and there are. Why do you deny their existence?

the a&e charge nurse said...

Marcin - in the US the market prices reimplantaion of a ring finger at $12,000 while a middle finger comes in at $60,000 - maybe there is a cheaper provider but by the time you've found them and proved that you can indemnify your insurance policy the amputed tissue is no longer viable.....oh dear.

Anonymous said...

Re “Yes, middle class vocal patients will get cleaner hospitals, but medicine is not about upper middle class people with posh 4x4s who don't want to give up their important schedule to get their varicose veins done.” This is just class hatred, of the worst kind. Actually poor working class and under class folk would also get cleaner hospitals and better-timed treatment options. At the moment the “middle class people with posh 4x4s” get far better service because they move to the catchment area of the best GPs (and best schools etc), this is selection in new labour land, this is not fair equitable access to services – this is absolutely not fair on the genuine needy poor folk.

Re “Medicine is about illness.” absolutely

Re “And sick people, by and large, are too sick to 'complain', or vote with their money.” Not really this is a small percentage of stuff for elective procedures. And my whole point is that they shouldn’t need to use a piss poor complaints process, they should be able to walk with their feet to another provider, it’s a lot less fuss than complaining, and it’s a lot more effective at keeping standards up than blunt instruments of complaints process. The vast majority of people poor, middle class, rich and all others in between can see when the room is dirty, can tell when they cannot get through on the phone, when they are being fobbed off with a physio instead of a surgeon, the people deserve to be able to get the providers to bend to their will instead of the other way around.

Re “They are often poor. They are often disadvanted and under-educated.” For the very same reasons as above because socialist idiots like you have consigned them to the worst estates with the worst schools and the generations of kids have no hope of escaping. If you want to solve this problem the only medium to long term way is “education, education, education” a promise the liar failed to deliver on.

Re “Nowadays, ambulance paramedics [Tom Reynolds et al] call the cardiologist DIRECTLY from scene, the cath-lab is put on standby and the patient does not even stop in A&E enroute to receiving primary angioplasty - what a brilliant service.” In small limited parts of the country. The problem with centres of excellence in the nhs is that there is no incentive for others to learn from best practise.

Dr Mustard said...

It works perfectly well in France, and it works perfectly well in the USA for those with a lot of money.

You obviously 'don't get out much'.

It doesn't work 'perfectly well' in France and it only works 'perfectly well' in the USA for those rich enough to pay cash and not bother wth insurance.

In France GPs get paid depending on how many patients they see. Patients go to see doctors they 'like'. They 'like' doctors who are 'sympathetic'. 'Sympathetic' doctors prescribe alot of stuff to underline their sincere sympathy.

In other words the patient is happier the more stuff they get prescribed. There is no evidence base to this prescribing - and that's one of the reasons their health system is unsustainable. It is consumerism and nothing to do with the patient's biological needs - i.e. to get well. It may also of course be harmful. Even penicillin can be fatal.

Ask any French person whether they think their health 'market' is cheap or efficient. The country can't afford it.

Mustard

Dr Pink said...

"it works perfectly well in the USA for those with a lot of money."

It works well in the UK if you have lots of money - you go private. Nice clean private hospitals (of course, what goes on behind the scenes may be another matter....).

Dr Rant is right. In the true sense of the word, there is no market in health care. Not in the UK. Not even in the US.

You cannot have a health care market, unless all consumers have the ability to make informed choices.

Anyone who thinks they can make in informed choice about health care is either an arrogant idiot or has never been really sick.

Anyone who thinks that it is classist to protect the sick and the poor from the excesses of the 'I want' Generation X 'individuality before community' mentality that is so prevalent in the UK just now, has never been really ill (or poor).

Name me one free-market radical thinkers on here who are both financially poor and have a serious illness. I've never met one.

All this crap about how making the rich richer helps the poor by dragging up standards for everyone. What tosh! Show me the evidence.

The Republicans got beaten in the midterms in the US not just because of Iraq, but because the economy was growing overall at the same time as the poorest workers were seeing a fall in their incomes.

Capitalism is like a game of Monopoly. It starts off great, but eventually there is just one big fucker with all the land and all the money.

For that reason, a community based ideology (son-of-socialism) is the future, not the past.

Dr Ray said...

The NHS has provided remarkable value, mainly due to the goodwill and common sense of the frontline staff. Even after Nulabour's billions we still only spend 9% of GDP while France spends 12% and USA spends 18%. And healthcare in the USA can be rubbish-I know because I worked there. I saw babies transported around the hospital in supermarket trolleys (not Tesco unfortunately) because neonatology was not "profitable" so there was no money to spare while Cardiology and Radiology couldn't spend all the money thrown at it-after all you can't have too many scans or angios can you? The VA hospitals (which, I suppose are the nearest they have to an NHS for the lucky ex military) were 3rd world and vast numbers of people have no healthcare at all. I came across one previously well off patient who developed a chronic disease and lost his job. He lost his insurance too and had to sell his beachfront home, boat, SUV and finally his home to pay for treatment and was left pennyless. Even the rich don't all do well out of the American system. Many Brits I came across were terrified of growing old in the USA and were planning to come back to the UK to enjoy the benefits of our NHS. The only people who benefit are the businesses and the politicians who get backhanders from them. Be careful what you wish for. It may already be too late because the very people that provided such a value-for-money service have been thrown to the lions and told they must compete or perish.

Dr Ray said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Dr Blue said...

Excellent set of responses so far. Thanks to you all for an interesting debate. Dr Rant has many voices so if you think Dr Rant's style is a bit inconsistent, we'll be all right after our olanzapine.

This topic touches a raw nerve and as Tim Worstall says there is neither a pure free market nor a pure command/control solution.

Health is not a product or output or concept you can put in a wheelbarrow, or on a conveyor belt. We lack a fully coherent definition of health and so struggle to decide what a "health service" would actually be about.

Should health be treated as a "special good" that cannot be traded for cash? Amartya Sen, Julian Tudor-Hart and Nye Bevan would cheer this proposition.

Alternatively is everything ultimately economic, reducible to something traded for cash. Professions are conspiracies against the laity, and cartels to keep prices up. Free markets are best way to prevent worst excesses of these cartels. I suspect MIlton Friedman and F.A.Hayek et al. would cheer for these ideas.

All these writers have good points and bad points. Meanwhile is there a sensible golden mean an NHS could travel that would give patients a good deal and doctors/other staff a fair job?

Bishop Hill said...

Nobody has mentioned Singapore as a possible model for how to do healthcare better.

Voyager said...

If I were Bill Gates I'd much rather use American medicine with all its costs and fees........but if I was a customer spending money on Bill Gates' software I'd prefer a healthcare system that treated me as a patient rather than a customer.

The NHS could be very efficient if it refused to treat sick people, poor people, repeat offenders.....why do we need to use insurance to achieve this end ?

Couldn't politicians simply have letters sent out to expensive patients telling them the NHS was not for them and to go private ?

That is the gist of the policy isn't it ?

Anonymous said...

the nhs already does refuse to treat fat people as an example off the top of my head, the nhs has lots of underhand rationing which is not debated democratically as it is always denied

if you think the veterans hospitals in the US are 3rd world you really should have a look at Selly Oak, and worse for folk already discharged the services

the only people who benefit from the current nhs are masses of buerocrats, a less deserving cause than genuine risk taking business folk who add value i feel

you have got to empower the patients, doing too many scans is a rather better scenario than the current underutilised scanner and long waits we have here

of course it is not perfect in the UK if you have lots of money cos you still end up in and NHS A & E for anything urgent - waiting and waiting and waiting in the dirt and screaming police prisoners threatening you

give the patients the buying power

Anonymous said...

>>“If Tesco can open till midnight every night, why can't our GPs open till midnight every night?”

Are all the goods sold at your local Tesco "free at the point of entry"?


........Ninguém

the a&e charge nurse said...

Anonymous - C/T scan = radiation, there is no case for exposure unless clinical benefit outweights potential risk.

Long waits in A&E are far less frequent than they used to be, although I accept the 4-hr target is fiddled in approx 5-8% of cases [98% is simply untenable given the massive increase in A&E attendences - 30% in our department over the last 10 years].

If your are a true emergency, as defined by the Manchester triage scale, you will be seen very quickly.
This was always the case even in the bad old days.

Have a look at the tariffs for 'casualty-plus', the private A&E department - is this the sort of expensive and restricted service you would like to see rolled across the rest of the UK ?

Anonymous said...

re "If your are a true emergency, as defined by the Manchester triage scale, you will be seen very quickly." dont be silly, there are not enough docs on duty in your average big city if more than one car smash comes in at the same time, more than a few heart attacks get rolled in, who you trying to kid? compare and contrast to what happens when multiple car accidents happen in milan, uk is a fucking shambles in comparison how you people can sleep at night and defend it is beyond me

re "massive increase in A&E attendences" mainly cos its impossible to see a GP, and walk in clinics, nhs redirect and out of hours services will just recommend folk attend A & E

Anonymous said...

re "Anonymous - C/T scan = radiation, there is no case for exposure unless clinical benefit outweights potential risk." yes but there are definite fashions of treatment within the medical sphere of different nations, this is entirely different to not running your scanners more than 36 hours a week despite massive backlog due to lack of cash to pay for a bit of overtime

the uk still does way more tonsils ops (for instance) than many similar nations, there is a risk to those ops, yet uk still blasts away and fails to study or rationalise why it does it, compared to this the US having free access to scans is trivial

Dr Pink said...

"re "If your are a true emergency, as defined by the Manchester triage scale, you will be seen very quickly." dont be silly, there are not enough docs on duty in your average big city if more than one car smash comes in at the same time, more than a few heart attacks get rolled in, who you trying to kid?"

I've been doing emergency medicine for nearly 10 years, and I've only seen Cat Red Triage patients waiting to be seen in A&E once - and that was a major incident when the entire medical staff of the hospital were already committed.

In fact, by definition, if any of these patients are waiting then it IS a major incident. Before that happens other medical staff are crash paged from elsewhere in the hospital.

So, you are talking out of your lying arse, Anon.

I do remember one patient demanding to know how long he and his sore thumb would need to wait to be seen as we were running a cardiac arrest patient into resus with CPR in progress.

Another example of the My Sore Toe is a Tragedy, You're Heart Attack Is A Minor Inconvenience type of patient that no doubt subscribe to anon's views.

Dr Pink said...

"The uk still does way more tonsils ops (for instance) than many similar nations"

Really?

Where do you get your figures from?

I can't remember the last patient I saw who had had a recent tonsillectomy.

More bullshit from Anon, methinks.

Heaven save us from opinionated morons.

Anonymous said...

re "More bullshit from Anon, methinks."

oh dear how we laughed

Anonymous said...

re "So, you are talking out of your lying arse, Anon." no im not, i was in and A & E recently and witnessed this very scenario, and overheard the docs talking to each other, and know exactly how fucked the system is

for fuck sake get out and look at the worst parts of the country as i can only assume you have been sheltered in a better run part if you are being truthful

i may be have failings but i can still see and hear

Dr Pink said...

"no im not, i was in and A & E recently and witnessed this very scenario, and overheard the docs talking to each other, and know exactly how fucked the system is"

More details please.

For example: how sick was the patient, what was their triage category, how long did the other patient wait, what action was taken to see the other patient.

It can take time for other staff to arrive once crash paged, depending on the size of the hospital.

Having said that, things are worse than they used to be for moderately serious cases because of minors getting seen sooder due to targets etc.. Never heard of someone with an MI or serious RTA being made to wait though (and I hear lots of horror stories).

Patients being left in ambulances to beat the clock is something I've heard off with the targets.

And what the fuck is different about doctors in Milan that they can see more than one patient at once?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 2 says

If an emergency department becomes overwhelmed with severely unwell casualities, the major incident plan is activated. Every hospital is required to have one. This involves extra doctors, nurses, theatre staff, radiographers, porters, receptionists etc coming in to the ED from other parts of the hospital and also from home. Patients with non-urgent conditions have their treatment deferred until capacity is available again.

This worked very well for the six car smash in the UK where I used to live. It was also used during the time of the London bombings where by most accounts an exceptional service was provided.

Speaking of that time, I have it on fairly good authority that at least one patient at a cancelled outpatient clinic was upset at having their appointment delayed. When told that staff had been diverted to tend victims of a terrorist attack, the reply was ' I don't care about them, what about MY appointment'. There's no pleasing some people, although I'm glad consumers like that don't hold health pursestrings.

Anonymous said...

re "And what the fuck is different about doctors in Milan that they can see more than one patient at once?" go and look at how the rest of the world does this and many other things they do to organise their health resources, you need to start learning from best practise

the a&e charge nurse said...

Anonymous [? no one] I was on duty during 7/7.
All of the hospitals involved implemented their major incident policy and most did pretty well [especially the London from what I hear].

Of course, a debriefing and review of procedures was carried out post event - because next time it might involve chemicals, etc.

This loathing of the NHS sets a new low even by your obsessive standards !!

Anonymous said...

"obsessive" ?

u try to kill and cripple my family i tend to get very pissed off about it, obsessive in my passion for my friends and family, and obsessive in my disgust at anything that trys to kill and cripple them

u dont understand that, u dont understand human nature

Dr Pink said...

"go and look at how the rest of the world does this and many other things they do to organise their health resources, you need to start learning from best practise "

Oh, that's really helpful.

Until you can actually tell me what you think is done better elsewhere, I'll just assume you are talking complete shite as usual.

Anonymous said...

re "Until you can actually tell me what you think is done better elsewhere" if the nhs can afford to waste those billions on centralised computing which will never produce results for end patients it sure as heck can afford to send a few docs to italy and belgium and new zealand and a few other places and swap notes on how A & E is organised

you cannot put the entire responsibility for what needs doing on little old me

Dr Mustard said...

re "Until you can actually tell me what you think is done better elsewhere" if the nhs can afford to waste those billions on centralised computing which will never produce results for end patients it sure as heck can afford to send a few docs to italy and belgium and new zealand and a few other places and swap notes on how A & E is organised

Presumably they could also fly off to other countries where their keyboards have shift keys and allow you to punctuate prose?

Anonymous said...

wot u caling me ueducatd ow der yer knaw wot

neways belitilin the over fella is a crap way of winni n rgument

as ever docters always fall back on their self perception of being so fucking superior due to the imagined better education and their self righteous view that they are always right

next youll be telling me how many degrees you have, how im not worthy

start quoting latin at me

for fucks sake get in the real world

i earn more than you do so stick your condecending manner up ur arse

add your own commas etc

Dr Mustard said...

Here's some Latin, It's Dr Rant's motto:

'Malus ad ossis'

(Bad to the bone)

Anonymous said...

docs are so predictable

Dr Pink said...

"wot u caling me ueducatd ow der yer knaw wot "

Is this a piss take?

Is it 'cos I'm highly educated?....

Dr Pink said...

oops - should be:

Is it cos I is highly educated...




(Kind of kills the joke doing it twice)

Dr Ray said...

Interesting to see the quality of the comments and replies get poorer the lower down the page you go. What started as a high minded intellectual debate degenerated into name calling and "my dick's bigger than your dick" style of arguing. You must attract the wrong sort of punters with your bad language Dr Rant (btw you have been blocked at the Nuffield Hospitals now-same reason: tasteless)

lost_nurse said...

No healthcare "market" is EVER as fluid as some commentators on here like to pretend. Privatisation of the NHS won't result in some kind of supermarket consumer utopia - it will be Crapita with an over-subsidised first aid kit (anon. I suggest that you read 'NHS PLC').

I'm happy to pay my taxes for (at the least) centralised emergency and acute capacity (as opposed to, say, PFI). Hard-won bloody-minded know-how is not something to piss away lightly. And I'd rather queue in the knowledge that head injuries are getting sorted. Why, I even take some civic pride in it.

ed doc said...

Poor anonymous.

I HAVE worked in many of the places he mentions, and in A&E (or ED or ER, whatever you want to call it.) I have no idea why he's fixated on the standard of care being so good in Milan. It's a fuck of a lot better in Edinburgh than Milan. Or New Zealand. Or Singapore (unless you have private insurance. I imagine he hasn't been to the emergency department at the Tan Tock Seng, the main public hospital for people who have diabetes or hypertension, and are therefore uninsurable). Those NZ walk in centres (I worked in one once) are often staffed by junior doctors who make up in confidence what they lack in experience.

There are many problems in the NHS, but sadly anonymous can't see the wood for the trees. He/she can't see it from anything other than a fixed viewpoint that never admits to anyone else having a point of view, especially a valid one stemming from more experience of these places. The idea 'it's better anywhere but the UK' simply doesn't hold water when you've (a) worked in these places and (b)the experience to know what good medicine is, not just give-the-customer-everything-they-want-and make-them-go-away medicine.

(Were it my blog I'd be temped to dismiss it as trolling.)

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