
As the dangerous empowerment of the under trained continues with the decision to hand nurses the power to make crucial decisions about whether to resuscitate a critically ill patient, a voice of reason has been heard on Doctors.net:
"Just got up and switched on my computer to read this on the BBC site. I am a final year med student, about to apply for F1/2 jobs and looking ahead to finals in a few months. In a previous life I was a registered nurse, including working for over four years in that role before deciding to do medicine.
I am utterly disheartened by this statement, as for me it is almost the straw that breaks the camels back after the MTAS uncertainty, the recent announcement of our likely salary without banding and an e-mail yesterday implying that because of the large number of EU grads applying for F1 we may not be able to apply for a run-through F1/2 programme this year.
I went to medical school for a number of reasons. I wanted to stay in healthcare, I wanted to challenge myself and develop myself. I did not want to be a charge nurse or nurse manager and I did not want to be a clinical nurse specialist or whatever because I felt that even with advanced practice courses I would not have the knowledge and skills that I believed were necessary to do the job that I wanted to do - i.e. practice medicine. So, I put my money where my mouth is (and believe me, with a young family to support it has been a hell of a lot of money) and I applied, was successful and went to medical school. Now, on a personal level I am very pleased to have done, but looking at it objectively, I wonder if I have been a bloody fool. All this expense, effort and sacrifice only to find I have joined a profession apparently despised, and certainly devalued, by this government, neglected by the 'union' (the BMA) and for some reason, not apparently widely supported by the media. Doctors are apparently superfluous in today’s society.
Nowadays, we have nurses running around trying to be second-class doctors, instead of first class nurses, taking on more and more extended practice, instead of actually nursing patients on the ward? This leaves HCAs or Auxiliaries nursing the patients, a task that 20 years ago required three years of quite rigorous training in anatomy, physiology etc (pre-dumbing down) and the passing of exams, on the basis of no training. Meanwhile, doctors are sold down the river and the junior doctor is increasingly handicapped in terms of what procedures we can and cannot do.
This is not the anti-nursing diatribe people might perceive it to be. I believe I speak from experience of both systems of education, and practical experience of nursing, plus the feeling that there was nothing in my nursing training that would have remotely prepared me for some of the decision making now devolved to nurses. And if I thought that before I started medicine, I know it for sure now. Nurses should nurse, doctors should doctor. If one wishes to change roles in either direction, retrain. Or better still, save all the time and money myself and other nursing colleagues now at medical school have spent, learn less, busk your way through without medical training and earn more.
I cannot wait to get out of this country, I really am finished with it here. At least until sanity returns to the government, the BMA and whoever else is responsible for (a) trying to destroy medicine and (b) standing by and letting it happen.
One question: I left the BMA a while ago as it is clear they are firmly on the side of the anti-doctor. Who could one join that might in some way represent doctors & medical student's interests effectively?
Rant over, I apologise if this seems OTT, it is just the way I see it."
This is the way things are, a thorough education and proper training are no longer seen as being essential for positions of great power and responsibility. The BMA and the government have a lot to answer for, excellent doctors are quitting medicine as nurses are empowered beyond their means. Just hope and pray that you have a doctor looking after you when you are critically ill.









40 comments:
He's sorry he left nursing and went for the very tough study at medical school only to find that he lost out. This is alarming and very unfair. That said, he is not alone, medics work so hard all their lives only to face unemployment, discrimination, humiliation and dismay thereafter. Six tough years of study wasted down the drain. Better have a good life, get bottom grades and go to nursing school for only three years instead. You have a much better chance of success and make a lot more money on the way. Of course, this is besides joining the clan terrorising young doctors in all our hospitals today. It is foolish to go to medical school, keep out!
The probem is that there are just too many communists running the NHS. This probably applies to the BMA as well.
The US, Australian and even some european medical professions would not tolerate such interference in their professional responsibilities and the majority do not wish for the UK socialised medicine model of health care.
That's why I advise medical graduates and students to leave the UK system as soon as they possibly can
Anonymous,
I disagree with Nurses being allowed to decide on resus status BUT:
You cannot get bottom grades and go to nursing school. At least not at my university. It was so competitive that one needed at least a 3.8 GPA and high SAT's to get in, and still there were over 150 applicants to one place. That was in the USA.
Saying that, I have yet to meet a nurse who wants to make this kind of decision. I certainly will not being doing it. EVER. No thank you Sir.
I have never had a problem getting a doctor to clarify resus status. Why the change to allowing nurses to do it? If it ain't broke don't fix it. Typical government meddling.
I will always crash call a patient unless a consultant or a registar tells me otherwise and documents it.
If I feel that a crash call will be innappropriate i.e patient is comatose, 105 years old and has multiple metastic disease and the family wants her to die in peace then I will ask a senior doctor to review the situation and document his order.
I don't understand why they even need to consider adding this to the list of things Nurses have to deal with. We have enough problems.
I don't think Nurses are behind this at all, I think it is the government. The number of nurses seeking advanced roles is microscopic. Am I wrong?
Just to add that nurses do know how you feel. We get treated like crap whilst the high school drop out health care assistants are the golden children.
I was told by a manager that if you have an extra health care assistant there is no need for a nurse. They wear our uniforms, their pay isn't much less than ours, they are addressed as "Nurse" but without the hell of nursing school nor any accountability.
Real doctors and Nurses need get together and fight back.
Actually, Dr(s) Rant, many of us are decidedly uneasy about this. Crash status should be decided by the Consultant, in discussion with the rest of the team. End of.
But that doesn't remove from the fact that many ?DNAR situations are very badly managed (see the discussion at DK). It's a bit rich spouting off the dumb-and-dumber stuff, when your own profession ain't exactly covering themselves in glory.
Nurse Anne, Medical school drop outs shy away from going to nursing school, you know, eh, eh :-)
Classic example of nurses unable to do proper research before posting on public blogs such as this one!......
Say what? I never said nursing school was harder than medical school or harder to get into. I never even implied that. All I did was describe one single school where they expected their nursing majors to have good grades.
Can you please clarify what it is you are on about?
There are so few places in the nursing schools in the USA for wannabe nurses that it is very competitive to get in even with the minimum 3.0 GPA. Mine was 3.8 and I barely scraped in. Even the community colleges are competitive because there are more wannabe nurses than places. I am not implying that it is harder than medical school. Far far from it.
This does not imply that I think nurses should be deciding resus status. I don't think they should.
My School (UPenn): Training good bedside nurses with options for the future for when your back is knackered from nursing and your physically disabled ass needs desk job.
"Bachelor's Degree
The School of Nursing offers a Bachelor of Science in Nursing (BSN) degree with a program that balances the liberal arts, science, and professional nursing preparation. Special opportunities include study abroad, joint degrees, minors and submatriculation into a master's in nursing degree or Penn's School of Law. Admission requirements include 4 years of science and math; SATs, 3 SATIIs and/or ACTs; and being in the top 10% of your senior class. Students may transfer to Penn Nursing after completing one year of advanced study at another institution. Transfer applicants must have completed a minimum of eight transferable college courses, including at least one laboratory science course and a minimum 3.0 GPA"
UPenn.
anonymous, you are a nincompoop. That you're teaching medical students -- if indeed you are -- is worrying. Otoh that the ones who are foolish enough to listen to you will leave the UK is our gain.
I couldn't agree more with several sensible opinions voiced here.
DNAR decisions should be better managed than they currently are and the answer is not to give the power to nurses.
While real doctors and real nurses need to unite against the minority of idiots who are wrecking proper doctoring and proper nursing.
Jayann, did you wash your hands before you posted this rubbish?!
Jaynn,
Some of us may well have to leave the UK to continue in medicine.
I too got the e mail the other day telling me i would no longer be gaurenteed an F2 job now as there may be more EU applicants than expected. As bias against non- UK grads is not allowed we should not therefore expect a job o nthe basis of reaching the standards of competency and passing all medical exams.
Hey i'm one of those people regulalry shouted down for defending the NHS and wanting to stay in the UK...however i have friends who were like me but are now doing clinical teaching jobs as they didn't get an ST job in any hospital.
Jayann,
You are upset by Anonymous's remarks because he said there are too many Communists in the NHS. He meant Socialists and he is dead right.
The problems in the NHS will never be addressed if political interference continues. You never miss an opportunity to critisise the Tories but nothing they did is as bad as this lot of dishonest, slimey hypocrits.
The fact is that the best option for British Medical graduates is to emigrate. Those who do so, do so because they have to because of the disaster created by New Labour. And it is to our loss, not our gain.
Are you seriously suggesting that they should stay here and accept the abuse, ignorence and callous disregard?
This angry nurse turned doctor here is sending you all nurses a message, The sooner you realise that medicine and nursing are two different cattle of fish alltogether, the better for you and your careers as nurses. Doctors will always be academically and professionally much higher than nurses and other health professionals, the reason why doctors will always be the decision makers, the responsibility takers, the team leaders etc. In short, the boss, regardless of how many nursing 'PhDs' you collect during your life time as nurses.
Now that this is out of the way, I may as well add that the most junior of doctors has, of course, a much bigger scientific base and pool of knowledge than the most senior of nurses with nursing PhDs up to their armpits..
Anonymous said...
Better have a good life, get bottom grades and go to nursing school for only three years instead. You have a much better chance of success and make a lot more money on the way.
****************************
Anonymous! shut the f**k up.
My role is despised by nurses and doctors alike, but I continue to remain in education to give thebest care I can give. I know My training was and is different from my medical colleagues and I'm well aware of my level of competence. I know where my knowledge ends and when I need the expertise of my GP colleagues!
Never, ever would I want to decide on DNR status of patients and I don't know many nurses who would. The government is using the minority of advanced nursing roles as bait to piss off the medical profession with hope it detracts from you being shafted by NuLabour.
6 month's ago, Doctor's we within a hair's bredth of marching on Westminster and removing some head's from certain MP's.
The relationship between Doctor's and Nurse's was good. Now, an election is looming, and Nu Labour spin machine is badly crippled but need's to try and make the Doctor's forget about MMC. What better way to do that then to try to stir up a turf war between Doctor's and Nurse's.
Anon: Show a bit of respect eh? Are you the usual "NHS is all full of commie's, let the money follow the patient blah, blah" fuckwit?
Of course, Nurse's were talking of strike action so if you want us all to quetly piss off, just say...
You see, this is where you are wrong NP, no one despises your role as "nurse" but you .. and other nurses! Nursing is a noble profession in it's own right so, resist the stubid roles that get thrown at you but are not your domain and lead to nowhere but heartache. Concentrate on what you were trained to do best; do your job well and you'd be doing yourself a favour too
What was all that effing about then if you agree with what I say, huh? :-)
nurse turned doc - I do not think that any of the nurses here [or anywhere else for that matter] have ever claimed that doctors are not very clever.
So why is there a perenial need to keep ramming this point down our throats, surely you can see there is a danger that this might start to alienate a few people ?
Of course nurses understand that doctors take the clinical lead, although I do necessarily agree with your boss:worker analogy [not in high functioning teams anyway] unless you are suggesting that doctors should be responsible for nurse recruitment, post-reg training, and structure ?
Take a look at the thread on "mousethinks", the A&E sister's blog, when she came across a junior doctor woefully undertreating a severely dyspnoiec patient with LVF - this is but one small example of life in the real world, and how traditional roles can sometimes blur from time to time in order to help the patient.
There are many other anecdotes like it and I daresay when you first venture onto the dialysis unit, ITU, theatres, and dare I say it A&E, you might be grateful for a spot of nursing expertise ?
I tend to agree with several of the commentators here who have noticed that a few quacks [who constitute a tiny fraction of the nursing workforce] are now in danger of becoming the pantomine villian ?
Perhaps this minor sideshow helps to stir up a bit more frustration amongst the new docs and distract them from the fact that they have been well and truly shafted by their own leadership ?
To cap it all we now have Darzai, another "clever boss" who wants to fuck up A&E departments so that he can introduce polyclinics [which will almost certainly be tendered out to private operators].
The DNR issue is a huge red herring, folks - I have NEVER heard any nurse suggest that this is a road we should be going down.
In fact, I have no idea why the BMA, RCN, Resus Council or Patients Association suggested the idea in the first place - can anybody shed any further light on it, I can only imagine that it is being driven by nurses who work in palliative care ?
I'm a first year medical student and am not sure what to make of the news, I'm inclined to wait and observe the roles of nurses during clinical years before passing judgement.
One thing that does piss me off is the BBCs offensively objective approach to reporting this news. It really does very little to inform, educate, or well...entertain.
AnE CN -
I absolutley agree with you on nurses (NPs or otherwise) guiding junior and the odd senior doc along. You and your helped me through the house year and now I buy you beers;) We complement each other as docs and nurses and yes the boundaries informally blur. There is a dangerour current to formalise those blurred boundaries now. _Perhaps too far.
I agree the DNR thing is likely to be spin.
On a personal note I worry about coming back to the UK - I have now been lucky enough to get a run through post in my chosen speciality. I keep telling myself that it iall about the end point..... I know what I will be at the end of ST training. I am not sure that the NHS will have such a clear idea.
I hope that I will end at working with you though.
Dr Sniper
end UP working with you.
Typing eh?
Dr Sniper
So are you guys saying that nurses shouldn't continue their education as nurses or in nursing, that they should just stay at diploma level?
I am just asking because I have known nurses with a masters who stay at the bedside...in other countries where the pay is better.
I love going to school and learning and I'm feeling the itch to go back and get my masters. I want to use that knowledge at the bedside which is a good thing I think. Are all nurses who are seen as increasing their education as nurses thought to be wannabe doctors? That is ridiculous!
Excellent Post A&E nurse.
It is a sideshow to deflect attention. Nurses do not want the power to decide resus status. The vast vast majoprity of nurses want to stay at the bedside and nurse.
Facts people facts!!
Thank you, Dr Sniper - I often think of your MTAS related posts whenever the quack issue surfaces.
The NHS can ill afford to lose such a dedicated doctor to a country that we regulaly thrash in world cup rugby ;o)
Although docs & nurses [sometimes] complain bitterly about each other in the blogsphere my experiences in A&E are overwhelmingly positive when it comes to working together.
It has ben said many times before, but perhaps it's worth repeating that the quack niche arose primarily because of the EWTD, rather than nurses suddenly insisting on role expansion.
Lets face it nurses got on with their job for decades, so what other explanation is there for them all suddenly wanting to become quacks ?
Anne - most US nurses wouldn't think twice about going for a masters, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but a higher percentage of them have higher academic qualifications in comparison to UK nurses ?
I have never understood how some people seem to think that education and high quality bedside nursing are mutually exclusive concepts.
Speaking as a nurse, I can safely say that I have no desire to have responsibility for DNR notices.
I'm happy to contribute to MDT discussions on DNR, but that's as far as I'd want to go.
"I have never understood how some people seem to think that education and high quality bedside nursing are mutually exclusive concepts."
Bingo Charge nurse that is exactly what I am trying to get at. They have lots of Masters degree nurses working on the ward over there as well as diploma nurses. Most are ASN or BSN.
Have we yet found a nurse who wants to be a doctor, do a doctors job or decide resus status without attending medical school? Nope. I think someone like that is so rare that they will be hard to find.
I agree. There's absolutely nothing incompatible between education and high-quality bedside nursing.
The overwhelming majority of nurses (including the ones who got impressive degrees at fancy-pants universities) came into nursing to nurse. Not because they want to become doctor-substitutes. Not because they want to sign off DNRs. But because they want to be at the bedside delivering care.
My (anecdotal) impression is that the nurses who got good degrees are better bedside nurses, not worse. They're better at thinking on their feet. They're more willing to work actively to improve the quality of services and to innovate. They're more likely to seek out and use research. They burn out less quickly. All of these are good qualities in a staff nurse.
People talking common sense and doctors & nurses agreeing with each other?
I'd have a pint in honour of this thread - if I wasn't on shift tomorrow.
some excellent swearing there dr rant. keep it up!
To be honest, it seems like this all started when the the BMA Junior Docs committee over promoted the EWTD to whittle down junior hours to a 9-5 job. (Yes much improvement from the ridiculous 100hr week but surely they should have given thought about how adequate training would still be achieved?!?). If junior docs opted back out of the EWTD then perhaps a lot of these problems which essentialy stem from a lack of hospital cover would be solved, and nurses would not have to fill in doctors roles (altho if in parts they are trained and want to do this then fine, but i dont think that is always the case).
LPAUGA write more, thanks.
actually, that's brilliant. Thank you. I'm going to pass that on to a couple of people.
Wonderful blog.
Magnific!
Good job!
actually, that's brilliant. Thank you. I'm going to pass that on to a couple of people.
actually, that's brilliant. Thank you. I'm going to pass that on to a couple of people.
Wonderful blog.
Magnific!
Please write anything else!
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