Thursday, October 18, 2007

Delay, Diminish, Deny and Blame: What the NHS can learn from American health corporations


“I once tried to explain to a Norwegian woman why it was so hard for me to find health insurance. I'd had breast cancer, I told her, and she looked at me blankly. "But then you really need insurance, right?" Of course, and that's why I couldn't have it.”
Barbara Ehrenreich, journalist and author


One of the arguments that frequently surfaces on here is that an insurance based healthcare system would be more efficient and customer responsive than our state funded NHS. Now we don’t believe that the NHS is perfect, or that it cannot be improved. However collectively we don’t see much future in market based solutions to the NHS.

Indeed we tend collectively to see market based solutions as anathema to a well functioning health service here in UK, and in other parts of the world. And despite the protestations of DK, Tim Worstall and the redoubtable and persistent 'Anonymous', we are still convinced that healthcare is not just another product in a market to be sold. Or at least if it is a product, it is a product that should, at least in basic form, be available to anyone on the basis that they are ill and suffering, not their ability to pay or their moral worth. To us the 100 million Americans with too little cover and from these the 47 million with no cover at all represent a moral outrage. They also seem daft in a healthcare system that spends such huge sums of money. (15% of the huge US GDP)

Fundamentally medical care is expensive (highly trained staff, many of them, lots of technology, lots of capital equipment, drugs, devices etc). The money for it has to come from somewhere and the options are:-
1. From general taxation
2. From user charges
3. From insurance cover
4. Some mixture of the above.

Of all these we tend to support Julian Tudor-Hart’s contention that the pooled risk across a whole society via general taxation funding is the fairest system.

We also contend that the old NHS which kept its transaction costs to the absolute minimum was cleaner, cared more about the patients, more effective, and had greater staff loyalty than the current michmash of policies will ever generate. The current reforms to us seem to increase transaction costs, generate ever more need for management, but not alter the fundamental interactions of patients, nurses, GPs and specialists. Indeed we have said on here that if all the managers were sent off to Mars we’d not miss them.

Some evidence from America supports our fears about insurance based systems and in this piece we want to display some highlights, and link you through to the original report.

(Seumas Milne picks up a similar theme in The Guardian)

In USA the provision of health insurance is a large and profitable business. Even so called “non-profits” have large “reserves” of income over expenditure.

Now as any business knows to make profits you need to get more income in than you pay out. So regular premium income in is good. High risk clients (those likely to claim) are bad. Paying out is bad for business, and should be as little and as late as possible. You mustn’t do this too obviously or people will start complaining that “We’re not getting what we pay for.”

It seems that in USA the patients are not getting what they have paid for. As a piece of consumer feedback this report is devastating for US health insurance companies. They seem to be an example of unfair trade, of taking money for not providing a service. We should consider this report very carefully indeed before letting them have any influence in UK health provision. The USA should consider carefully how much longer it will let them provide US health care.

Anyway here are some great slogans that advertise health care companies. “Over 195 years of wisdom” (Almost as long as Hippocrates) “Nothing is more important to us than the ability to be there when our customers need us following a disabling accident or illness” A friend of mine at university ran for office on the platform of “SLOGANS, not solutions” He did very well on it. But fortunately he was only wanting to run Hikesoc.

Here are some key quotes from the report

“Because of the conflict of interest between health insurance company profits and
necessary health care for all, millions of people in the US do not receive necessary health care and disability benefits, and suffer significant negative consequences”

“Built into institutionalized blame is the assumption that the basis for the health or disability claim is a mental condition, or a personal defect of the individual. One of our interviewees stated, “You are guilty until proven innocent”.

Over half of the twenty people interviewed in our study described feelings of personal
responsibility for their condition or were told by doctors, nurses, or claims managers that the problem was their own fault.”


(Such questions may arise in UK NHS, but don’t stop people from getting treated)

“As mentioned above, we uncovered psychological patterns of accusation and suggestion of fraud as well as blame placed on individuals for their own health and disability problems. Inducing self doubt and frustration into a claimant’s life is a way of psychologically encouraging a patient to terminate the pursuit of rightful benefits. Some of our participants suffered from severe disabilities and spent years fighting their insurance companies for benefits. The average time spent per week in trying to get benefits among our twenty interviewees was 6.5 hours, which included waiting on hold, call transfers to multiple representatives, travel to insurance company
doctors, gathering medical records, and filling out paperwork.”


(How much time and money is being wasted here in endless checking? Are the US people so dishonest and fraudulent that they deserve this level of checking? Or would the patients and doctors do better without the transaction costs this bureaucracy generates?)

“A 2003 study in the New England Journal of Medicine estimates that spending for the administrative costs associated with health care amount to over $320 billion per year, or about thirty-one percent of overall health care costs in the US.”

(To us this spending this percentage of health care dollars on administration must be a waste of money that could have better been spent on getting on with treatment. To the UK Department of Health McKinsey et al are becoming all the rage. Encephalitis bureaucratorum as we doctors know it. They set up great systems…for getting money from taxpayers into their accounts)

“In some cases, the claims process lasted years. One person reported seeing twenty-one different doctors during the course of the claim.”

(This has to be squandering patient and doctor time.)

“Delays by the insurance industry were the most prevalent practice reported by our interviewees. All of the participants interviewed experienced numerous delays including long waits between correspondences, unreturned phone calls, and asked repeatedly to communicate all the details of their case to insurance company representatives.”


(In UK at least we try to treat first.)

“The [disability company] closed my claim while I was going through surgery for
lack of medical documentation. This delay has cost me dearly. The process of
making contact with the [disability company] was a severe hardship during my
chemotherapy and [continues] until this day.”


(UK cancer patients mostly don’t have this worry. They may however have a struggle to get the chemotherapy their doctor recommends. Looks like in USA they may have a similar problem, just at a different point in system)

“Another method of delayed treatment that many of our interviewees experienced was the request for excessive information. People who are disabled are also attending doctor’s visits, taking medication, and trying to survive daily life. Companies demanded that claimants attend multiple doctors’ visits and submit all copies of their medical records. Additionally, interviewees reported that companies requested financial and employment information and would speak to friends, colleagues, and employers; gathering information that was sometimes completely unrelated to
their claims. Interviewees stated that insurance companies requested copies of the same records multiple times.”


(Just like the UK, except that here the bureaucrats work for the government rather than a private company!)

“In 2001 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy…About half cited
medical causes, which indicates that 1.9–2.2 million Americans (filers plus
dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy annually. Among those whose
illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start
of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors
were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage.
Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when
sick.” (Health Affairs, 2005)


(The NHS doesn’t do this to anyone. For all its flaws, there in no-one in UK going bankrupt to pay off medical bills)

“People in the US have a choice. They can continue with the profit-driven private insurance health care system leaving many millions to languish without care, and many millions more to face the frustrations of systematic delays, diminishment, and denials of promised benefits. Alternatively, they can build a common pool health care system that provides necessary health care to everyone– for less than we are paying now”

(The UK and rest of Europe made this choice after WW2. Paying for bureaucracy whilst getting little is rank bad business, and one of the reasons why team Rant is so sceptical about the current UK NHS reforms.)

“Each person interviewed for this study had insurance at the onset of his or her malady. They paid monthly premiums through employer sponsored plans or had purchased individual/family policies directly from insurance companies. The people in this study believed they would receive the benefits they were promised in the event of an accident, disease, or illness. The management practices of the health or disability insurance company delayed, diminished, and denied payment for expected benefits.”


(Buyer regret and customer disappointment. Not a good way of doing business.)

“Each processor is ordered to deny a set dollar amount of claims each month and if the target was not achieved, they lost their jobs.” (personal communication, February 2007)
(It’s a deliberate tactic by the insurance companies to deny benefit to some claimants)

This report from Sonoma State University California shows that US health corporations are far from being a good way to finance health care. The incentives to private companies (profits) mitigate against paying out when needed. The strategies of blame, delay, diminish and deny all work against the interests of insured patients.

The NHS in UK has many faults, but at least we cover the whole population most of the time.

Well at least we used to. Sadly the move of dentistry to the private sector, and the debacle of C Difficile in Kent may be the tipping points where the British start to abandon our collective loyalty to the NHS.

There must be a better way of organising health care than either the NHS (with its excessive bureaucracy, long waiting times, and monolithic response to change) or USA health insurance (with its excessive bureaucracy). Have the continentals discovered it?

41 comments:

Anonymous said...

Oh dear it's that old chestnut, look how we compare to the American system

Yes yes we know the American system has many problems, not as bad as this rather unbalanced view lays out

Really we should be comparing and contrasting with the best of different other healthcare systems? Not simply looking at the US?

I don't think a state backed insurance system providing the money, but many of the treatment providers being free market, needs to mean that folk with pre-existing conditions or in poor circumstances have to be let down. They whole point of making it a state backed insurance scheme is that it can take on bad risk customers which a normal commercial insurance company would not be able to. It can provide a more honest level of care, and written levels of cover, rather than being at the whim of some PCT deciding what is and is not covered. But at the same time it can be honest when money is not available for treatment, and not run a big charade of hiding lack of provision behind countless waits.

And let the vast majority of mentally stable patients decide what to do with their state backed insurance payout. Where to take it. Forcing some competition between the providers to ramp up standards!

One of the biggest problems in the NHS is the monopoly provision, and the lack of REAL choice the patients have.

I don't think your solutions will work.

Competition and spending your own cheque are amazing techniques. It doesn't take many customers to leave a site due to dirt to force the provider to clean up. It doesn't take many customers to go somewhere else because the person they are seeing doesn't speak good enough English to force the providers to ramp up their English skills. It doesn't take many customers to move to a speedier supplier to reduce waits. And it would make the patients appreciate what they have got, and exactly where the limitations of cover are!

Dr Blue said...

It's a jolly splendid old chestnut though isn't it. And the USA does compare unfavourably spending a lot of dollars on administering a very inefficient market place. Markets are supposed to be competitive and so to streamline processes, and to deliver what consumers want. Doesn't look like the Americans achieve any of these.

The current NHS reforms aren't going to generate much competition, only demolition. The flaws in practice based commissioning are huge, and we'll write something on these in another piece.

Whether tax funded patients buying from amongst competing providers would work I don't know.

Anonymous said...

The current NHS reforms aren't going to generate much competition

Agreed

The flaws in practice based commissioning are huge

Agreed

but I still want to be able to take my health spend to any provider i choose, and let millions of similar patient decisions ramp up service levels in a way top down dictats cannot

jayann said...

I saw The Guardian piece (I was going to send it to you guys -- you're efficient today!). Also I know people in the US with allegedly good health insurance who've been really badly let down.

Whether tax funded patients buying from amongst competing providers would work I don't know.

I really don't see how that would work (that is, how it would be put into practice). Giving me (e.g.) a lump sum every year (in voucher form, I take it) to er 'choose and book' my treatments of choice, of course doesn't make sense.

No one, I think much of your enthusiasm for a customer-patient system stems from the inflexibility of the current GP system, and I do sympathise; I have good GPs but way back in the past, was stuck with rotten ones (and suffered rather badly as a result). A stronger version of the choice I used to exercise when I got my Northern GP to refer me to a *good* breast surgeon -- this was in ye olde days, before even Tory 'choice' -- and that also included GPs, might work to an extent. But of course if everybody wanted to go to the clinic I moved to, they wouldn't be able to. Also, you think the inferior ones would improve following the exit of certain patients? ! I think more likely, they'd be starved on funds but also complacent -- complacent because they'd know information deficiencies and simply logistic considerations would lock many of their patients in.

Markets are supposed to be competitive and so to streamline processes, and to deliver what consumers want

Yeah. You tried dealing with Abbey National lately?

The current NHS reforms aren't going to generate much competition, only demolition.

Right. -- I look forward to your piece on practice-based commissioning.

jayann said...

Oh sorry. Dr blue, my snipe ('Yeah' etc.) wasn't aimed at you. It was a general snipe at believers in 'markets'.

Funny Pseudonym said...

Anon, you really are a cluless idiot.

We have to compare our system to the USA because it's the American companies who are now tendering for the contracts to provide medical care.

If we had a rash of Swedish companies looking for our business then maybe we would spend more time looking at their system.

Until then we have to look at the USA and prepare for what will take over when we let the NHS go down the tubes.

Your "give us all a cheque" idea is shit and has been debated until its pretty obvious it wont work.
You won;t get a free market.. you will get profiteering and end up in just as shitty a situation..just with added premiums.

Anonymous said...

re "No one, I think much of your enthusiasm for a customer-patient system stems from the inflexibility of the current GP system" not really, also the reality of what happens when you are referred in the nhs to a consultant, and what happens when you need an op, overlayed with the realities of working for a living, and moving locale frequently for work, and the constant messing around for those with long term conditions "you must ring this number to have a special blood test before you can see the consultant" - of course the number is always engaged and the reality is thats just another 3 month fucking delay, etc, etc, etc, the dirt, the bad attitude, the acceptance of bad service as acceptable

funny fucker

do you really think your constant "you really are a cluless idiot" comments really help the debate? do you really think its a positive way to get me to consider your views?

re "Your "give us all a cheque" idea is shit and has been debated until its pretty obvious it wont work" where has it been debated then? show me a patient with the cash to pay for an operation unable to get one where and when they want and ill start listening to alternates.

Diancecht said...

One reason that competition doesn't improve standards in the NHS is that in the NHS the competition is not between providers for "business" but between the patients for access to services

Funny Pseudonym said...

Anon i gave up long ago trying to debate with you... you don't debate you trot out the same one line argument every time.

We have talked about this, giving people money to spend would mean that services woud diminish and acess would decrease. Demand outstrips supply in healthcare, so all you would do is make some areas rich and others much worse as they would either loose money or just set up a production style system taking the money off those would can't get treated elsewhere.

Anyway we already have a place patients can spend their money, the private sector. Now how long would it cope if everyone had a cheque in their hands and wanted treatment.

Tim Worstall said...

"There must be a better way of organising health care than either the NHS (with its excessive bureaucracy, long waiting times, and monolithic response to change) or USA health insurance (with its excessive bureaucracy). Have the continentals discovered it?"

The French system has its merits. Work related insurance pools plus 15-25% deductible that many then cover with private insurance. The Swedish county based system perhaps.

My biggest complaint about the NHS would really be size. No one, but no one, knows how to manage 1.3 million people efficiently. It has to be broken up, somehow, into units that can actually be managed. 300,000 or so people absolute tops.

Anonymous said...

re "services woud diminish and acess would decrease" how whats your logic here? probably access would increse as providers would have to provide more patient friendly appointment hours, services would probably become more patient friendly also

re "Demand outstrips supply in healthcare" agreed, but I think on the whole the patients would be better off deciding where to take their health spend than the nhs

re "so all you would do is make some areas rich and others much worse" if by this you mean the providers popular with the patients get rich, then good luck to them and i hope they give the staff a big bonus, and the "others much worse" can close and be replaced with better run ones

of course a state backed insurance scheme would make it much more explicit to the public what they were covered for, and what they were not, breaking that fantasy that the nhs covers us for everything

Anonymous said...

re "we already have a place patients can spend their money, the private sector." yea but I cannot get access to the money Ive paid into the state backed nhs insurance scheme can I? unless I use the nhs. How many times am I being taxed on the same money? if the nhs is so fucking good you should have no worries about patients being given the money and asked to choose where to have their operation.

re "It has to be broken up, somehow, into units that can actually be managed" yes it already is to some extent, PCTs, hosptial trusts etc. There are problems
i) too many top down dictats from central nhs
ii) doesnt cope well with large geographically mobile workforce moving from one PCT to another fairly frequently
iii) frankly evil wankers like Coventry PCT can get good reviews by manipulating the system
iv) not forced to be responsive to real customer needs

Anonymous said...

so how much time you spent in the US? which states? which hospitals? like most people who spout on this topic you are probably just spouting the bollocks the labour party would like you to believe

thank god the us and the uk are not the only countries on the planet

chris said...

Tim Worstall and DK are looking across the Channel rather than the Atlantic when they advocate an insurance based system. Most of Europe didn't choose the fully centralised state funded and controlled system like that which was put in place in the UK. They went for a state funded (or part funded) but not state controlled system of social insurance.

jayann said...

also the reality of what happens when you are referred in the nhs to a consultant, and what happens when you need an op,

point taken, though we probably encounter different problems there; mine are that I have to wait for *ages* (and by that I mean more than a year), Wales has no two-week rule.

and the constant messing around for those with long term conditions "you must ring this number to have a special blood test before you can see the consultant" - of course the number is always engaged

Yes. I do think this is probably something to do with the fact that you move around so much and also get, I'll be diplomatic, a not-ideal GP!! -- my brother has diabetes and he doesn't go through that. but I'm fairly sure that's because he has good GPs he's been with for ages and, like me, lives very near a good teaching hospital. I admit, also, that when I have to ring a hospital -- for whatever reason -- and they either don't answer the 'phone or are engaged, I do what I'd do with a private company, i.e., ring another of their numbers and ask to be put through, or even ring another hospital in the same Trust and do it. But I did once run into your problem, when OT were simply forever engaged/not there,luckily, it wasn't all that important (also at my next appointment, the doctors were shocked by OT's failure to do what they were supposed to, and rushed everything through right there and then).

I agree a lot of this is just not good enough, and particularly not for people who are working and can't take lots of time off to 'phone and 'phone again, to wait in line, and so on. That's particularly so when NHS hospitals can in fact do what UHW Neurology does: they write, not to dump an appointment on you, but to invite you to ring and book an appointment suitable for you; and they keep to the time. (I wouldn't be surprised to find their no-show rate is low.)

Funny Pseudonym said...

Yes anon i mean all the patents out there know exactly who they need to see/ which person is the best/ appropriate...

I wish i could access your money you have put into the NHS (i bet it accounts to a pittance) and ship you off abroad.
I bet your money would run out in no time and i think (no actually i know (i lived in the US in LA for a time, Italy near naples for a few years and France)and i bet you would be rosy spec'd for the NHS.

Anonymous said...

funny fucker

youre just spouting constant abuse, ill not bother responding anymore, good luck

jayann,

yea but i have many friends/relatives spread allover the UK, and have a wide ranging view of how many of them experience the nhs, many different areas and demographics, none particularly good experience of the nhs

yea long term care does depend on close relationship with the local consultant, their specialist nurses, the other members of their team, to bypass the "system", and to have the "heres my mobile just ring it if youre in real trouble" informal access, this for diabetics is pretty essential, but takes at least 6 to 12 months to build up in a new area, so any diabetic who moves address frequently is let down big time by the nhs

etc etc

Devil's Kitchen said...

Whatever you, Team Rant, might hope and pray for, as long as both the provision and payment of the health system is in the hands of politicians, you will never get the chnages that you want. Why will you not understand this?

If you don't like the solutions on the Continent or the US, how about looking at Canada? In that system, the state pays for the care (or as much as it does in the UK) but the provision, i.e. the hospitals, etc., is private.

Maybe if we tried even that modest adjustment, we would not have Canadians coming over here and asking why our hospitals are "crumbling" and "in such a state"?

DK

jayann said...

this for diabetics is pretty essential, but takes at least 6 to 12 months to build up in a new area,

Yes.

Anonymous said...

jayann,

of course its getting significantly worse now, cos the nhs is forcing more and more diabetics to be cared for by GPs rather than consultants, and GPs "with an interest" are becoming in loco consultants, in fact GPs with no clue at all are replacing consultants, which "may" be OK in the most routine cases, in the more extreme difficult to control cases is just plane dangerous

to be fair some of the GPs will admit this, but without a history in that locale, it is impossible to bypass the system and go to the consultant or his team when the long term locals probably can, so you end up in a circa 4 month queue (officially) of course its much longer in practise (due to various techniques such as "you must ring this number to have a special blood test" but of course the number if permanently engaged for weeks on end)

if the Dr C and rant team actually saw a lot of this close up from the patient point of view they would probably become even more keen for something to be done!

Dr Blue said...

Thanks for all the replies.
I think the US experience illustrates the problems of insurance based schemes clearly. Anyone with any sort of pre-existing condition- "you sneezed once therefore you must be uninsurable" should be very afraid of US (and UK holiday insurance at times) insurance based medicine.

The UK experience illustrates the problems of single payer and single provider all too clearly. Tim Worstall is right about the sheer unwieldiness of an organisation of 1.3 million people. I think a good half of NHS employees hate the management, and the other half are the management.

I have realised I need to know more about European models of funding and providing. (Info greatfully received by us)

Britain is usually a sensible country and uses a mixed/compromise approach to many things. Its appproach to health puts us at one extreme of ways of funding health ranging from total private provision at one end to total state provision at the other. I can't help thinking that a basic state safety net topped up by private contributions for extras/ luxuries would be more sensible.

The great themes of "choice" and "booking" along with "commissioning" and "patient centeredness" that are so talked about by current NHS management are in urgent need of ridicule for the idiocy that they are.

jayann said...

I have realised I need to know more about European models of funding and providing

?! you didn't look into that first?!

I can't help thinking that a basic state safety net topped up by private contributions for extras/ luxuries would be more sensible

I think we might have some problems defining 'luxuries'. Some might see IVF treatment as a luxury, some, cosmetic surgery. Some would continue and exacerbate the current system of covert rationing by age.

Britain is usually a sensible country and uses a mixed/compromise approach to many things

hence its mix of NHS and private medicine?

I think looking at other countries' solutions should be accompanied by an analysis of NHS spending.

But, start with Sweden

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4460098.stm

Dr Ray said...

"show me a patient with the cash to pay for an operation unable to get one where and when they want and ill start listening to alternates".
Yesterday a 52 year old non smoking female with no family history phoned me up to arrange a screening scan for aortic aneurysm privately. I told her it wasn't worth doing. This was because I have a background in the NHS and don't put profit before ethical practice. I also refuse to do private whole body CT screening CT scans though there are plenty of companies that do, especially in the US. How does this fit in with the market approach. If she had gone to her GP and asked for it on the NHS she might have thought she was being denied a scan due to rationing but the fact is that patients need an advocate to help them through the complexities of health care and, in the UK, the lack of financial incentive for doctors is a great strength.
Would you absolutely trust a doctor if you knew he might profit from his recommendations?

Anonymous said...

dr blue,

good points, there is however a big difference between "choice" and "patient centeredness" as spouted by the bullshit merchants running the nhs and what these words really mean.

jayann,

yea what needs topping up, and what doesnt, becomes up for debate. but at least then its up for public debate rather than decisions taken behind closed doors by PCTs with no accountability to the people. i would go for the simplest definitions possible.

dr ray,

the problem with your model is that it depends on having a half decent GP to guide you through the maze. for many of us this is not the reality. the other problem is that what treatment you get is dependant on the prejudices of the consultant and management team of the PCT etc, rather than on an agreed basis of what is covered and what is not. the beauty of the patients being able to make the decisions is that they can overcome the bottleneck of the crap GP or the piss poor PCT etc. Most of the professionals who serve me profit from it, doesnt bother me, but I can shop around, get different opinions etc.

glad this blog is moving away from the militant communist model for the nhs and starting to open its eyes to reality

Anonymous said...

oh and on the "topped up by private contributions" thing, one thing we can learn from the US is their family health funds, sort of like a UK personal pension or ISA account (so its got tax perks), but can be shared across many members of the same family (so the risk gets shared to some degree), and can be used to pay out for medical fees as and when the family choose. it allows ordinary familys to build up significant sums over time to pay for health, make their own decisions about which treatments are covered or not, and removes the nasty insurance companies from failing to deliver the cheque when you most need it. this can be supplemented by health insurance in variable ways.

I like this much more than straight private medical insurance. Granted it would only work for those lucky enough to have a good extended family, But to a lesser extent a similar scheme can work for individuals.

Of course I would advocate a better state saftey net insurance scheme underlying this than anything in the states.

One of the worst things about the UK system is being taxed so much for the NHS, then having to pay again out of taxed income because the NHS fails to deliver treatment.

Another approach would be to get anything you spent on your own health to be added to your tax allowance. You have after all saved the NHS or equivalent a lot of money by going private.

Dr Rant said...

"how about looking at Canada? In that system, the state pays for the care (or as much as it does in the UK) but the provision, i.e. the hospitals, etc., is private."

For-profit providers are illegal in Canada.

Most hospitals are owned by the provincial health care systems, and any that are not are not-for-profit units.

Dr Ray said...

"Most of the professionals who serve me profit from it, doesnt bother me"
Anonymous-you must have more faith in human nature than I have. I live with broken teeth, a leaking roof and my money almost literally under the mattress because I have had my teeth drilled for money, been left with a worse roof than I started with by builders and been ripped off by Equitable Life. When I deal with anyone the first thing I as if whether the advice is for my benefit or theirs and sadly, people generally go into business (or politics) to help themselves.
NHS doctors will have different levels of ability and won't always get it right but there isn't the added complication that they are trying to rip you off. A few doctors are lazy or uncaring and I would not try to defend them but, from the ones I have met, I think this is rare. The correct advice from a doctor is not always going to be the most popular but many patients have unjustified expectations and then interpret this as uncaring or bad advice. For example, anonymous, if you had really bad neck pain would you expect to have x-rays and an MRI scan and be angry to be refused by the PCT?
I suspect you would, but in practice the radiology is almost always a waste of time but we still do it because it is what patients expect- making access faster or giving the patients the money to get it done privately is not going to help anyone.
I do in fact agree with you that the level of service would improve with your system- you would see more pretty smiling receptionists and better decor but health care outcomes are more difficult for the patients to assess and most patients do not have the ability and information to make a valid choice and will use proxy indicators such as whether the doctor was pleasant or the parking was easy.

Anonymous said...

Dr Rant, yea the Canadian system is worth looking at, so are the systems in New Zealand and Australia, and indeed the Swiss one, doesn't think Europe is the only place to pick up good ideas from. However I don't think having a profit motive to attract investment and innovation is bad, I just think it needs real competition with the end consumers really choosing between providers to make it work.

Dr Ray, of course you are right to some degree. Some regulation is necessary in essential services and can help to some degree. But being a buyer and consumer is always harder than it looks. One of the reasons the NHS is so fucked up is it really has such screwed up ideas on how to buy and subcontract things. For an individual you can research roofing contractors, there are ways of improving your chances of getting a good provider. I think you are naive regarding the competence and service provided by the bottom rung of NHS doctors, especially in the inner cities and poorer areas. The reality remains you can have a new roof built with input into the design decisions, using materials and techniques you want, within the parameters of the labour available on the market, and both sides optimise the financial side. You can be sure if we had a nationalised roof repair service there would be a 12-month wait to get an appointment with a roofing guy. Yes health care outcomes for patients are difficult to assess to some degree, but consumer organisations will do surveys and monitoring and reports etc, which the public will be able to read. It not only the superficial (although some of this is important too) the public will notice, long time to access a diabetic consultant, inability to see a gynaecologist and being fobbed off with a nurse, failure to remove skin lesion because the nhs doesn't think the chances are high enough it maybe skin cancer, being able to avoid an obviously dirty hospital, these are all potentially life or death decisions, simples examples there are many more, and decisions that a public with buying power would be able to dramatically change the way they are treated, and almost certainly improve their outcomes.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the following might add some light on the arguments over state v private: I have worked (up until my retirement) and lived in France for around 9 years. In a nutshell the health service in France is around 70% state funded with the balance being picked up by insurance (normally paid for by your employer), or if you are (1) broke (means tested) and/or (2) you’ve got something serious, the state pays.

When you visit your GP you pay (at today’s rate) 21€. Of which you can reclaim 70%. Until about two years ago you could chose any doctor licensed to practice medicine, have your consultation and claim your money. Now you are still free to consult who you chose but you can only reclaim your 70% through a doctor (which would normally be a GP) with whom you are registered. By why of an example if you were to seek a second opinion it would cost you 21€. If you are referred to a specialist you can chose your specialist and hospital, most people I know, like me, just go to the nearest hospital and see the specialist recommended by the GP.

I don’t know the official reason for this change but, (1) my GP and (2), a relation through marriage, who is a radiologist, both say it was because so many people peddled themselves around so many practitioners looking for a diagnosis that they liked the state had to stop it on the grounds of cost and the best interests of the patients.

I could go on…but I think that’s enough for now.

Devil's Kitchen said...

"You can be sure if we had a nationalised roof repair service there would be a 12-month wait to get an appointment with a roofing guy."

You mean like trying to get a telephone line put in when BT was a state-run monopoly? You know, when you couldn't actually buy a phone -- only rent it...

DK

Anonymous said...

sounds like in france at least the patient can take their health spend where they like, allowing at least some competition to keep the places clean and answering the phone etc

Funny Pseudonym said...

France had one of the best helth systems i have used.
The big thing would be the levels of ta in France. I had no problem with the part that was removed from my pay packet each month but lots of the ex-pats i worked with (esp the new ones) were always up in arms about how much more they had to pay than in the UK.

I think its dirty and seedy but we have to mention levels of taxes in relation to levels of public spending and funding the better public infrastructure.

Oh and no-one you started the abuse..unless funny fucker was a term of endearment (then i will give you a kiss and all is well again).

Anonymous said...

no look back and read

you abused me before i ever used the term funnny fucker

yea france isnt perfect either, but i know little of the sitation there so i wont spout on about medical treatment in a country i hardly visit like many do on here

no one

X-ray Ted said...

the beauty of the patients being able to make the decisions is that they can overcome the bottleneck of the crap GP or the piss poor PCT etc.

This would be the same patients who spend hundreds of pounds calling premium phone lines. Who allow cowboy builders to tarmac their gardens. Who believe every crack therapy revealed in the press. Who beleive Andrew Wakefield. Who demand a CT scan for 'headache after heavy drinking' (sic). Who bought their car with 'Yes Car Credit' and who bought every single permutation of the Manchester United kit.

There maybe crap GPs. There may be piss poor PCTs but, for heavens sake don't leave the general public in the hands of the advertising executives and snake oil salesmen.
Everytime I cross the Atlantic I am astounded by the 'insist your physicial gives you X' or 'your life will be shit forever if you don't insist you get Y immediately from your doctor' ads that appear between every single program.

I see a future with the ill-informed blowing all their personal cheque on pointless preventative treatments, like Dr Ray's whole body scans then pitching up seriously ill at the end of the year, funds bled dry, with a critical illness. How far can you stretch a safety net?
Patient choice would expand considerably to include such choices as 'shall I pay for some food or for the gas bill?' will become 'do I have my hip fixed or should I have the glioma removed?'

Anonymous said...

x-ray

there are ways around this

yes i think the public can be a bit strupid at times, but the facts remain that competition and similar systems are the only ones that have ever worked in the consumer supply business

yes it will need regulation and probably an OFFHEALTH style organisation

but at least you CAN get car credit and choose from the pros and cons of multiple providers, you are not given a one size fits all solution, and forced to wait in dirt

probably an excess on early treatment would be good for some stuff, to force folk to think about why they are there, same for GP appointments, balanced by a reduction in taxation, open to ideas here

at least they would be able to get a hip replacement rather than tolerate the massive waits and problems from a PCT

and there would be a contractual relationship between the patient and the medical supplier, if they failed to provide treatment you would have the normal remedies of law, rather than no real remedy when a PCT fails to provide treatment

Grumpy Med Reg said...

Um Anon? Anon of the whinge-about-diabetic-services Clan?

You do understand that if we went to a "take your cheque" system, or a pure insurance system, you would NOT BE COVERED don't you?
You and all people with chronic illness, particularly those with progressive problems like the risk of diabetic retinopathy, neuropathy, and nephropathy, are not a good risk.
Your cheque will barely cover insulin let alone a doctor.
Unless you are very very very wealthy prepare for minimal care that will not cover diabetic nurses, consultant input, or fancy stuff like foot clinic. And as for when your untended kidneys pack it in - oh boy I sure do hope you have a Sugar Daddy for your dialysis cos Insure and Go aren't going to cut it.

Anonymous said...

grumpy med,

thats why id rather we had a state backed insurance scheme replace the nhs, because its state backed it can take on high risk cases which a commercial company would struggle to, and can take on people who contribute too little

same people would pay into it as pay into the nhs now, only instead of the state running the medical providers, the state would only guarentee the insurance company, patients get a cheque from company, and take it anywhere they want

for what its worth access to diabetic nurses, consultants, foot clinic and so on is piss poor here in the nhs, probably for most of their life middle income earners would be better off paying their own way even if diabetic, if only they could get a tax reduction to compensate i am sure many would

Anonymous said...

Basically you want the ability to have any and all treatment that takes your fancy. Have it now and not wait for any time, at any location you choose for a modest fee (you have no clue about the cost involved in running a service) at a time that suits you (Sat or maybe Sun just after lunch) but not loose the state backed system that would then take over when you then couldn't afford the cost of more serious illness or acute event.

Anonymous said...

yep i do want any treatment that a consultant tells me would be a good idea

yep id dont see why any of us need to wait for 3 months, 6 months or longer in practise

yep i want to choose the hospital

happy to pay a fair market price, which are easy to gauge from current private rates and costs abroad, im sure these providers are financially viable

yep whats wrong with weekend appointments, sounds fine to me, probably some of the workers at the providers would appreciate the extra cash and would enjoy it too, seems to work fine outside the nhs

i would prefer to keep some element of state backed system to act as a safety net yes, but id like the patients to still be able to choose which provider to go to

whats wrong with that?

if you dont like that just scrap the whole thing and let me keep all the tax i pay towards the nhs, ill be fine with that, cheers

Dr Ray said...

"I see a future with the ill-informed blowing all their personal cheque on pointless preventative treatments, like Dr Ray's whole body scans"
X-ray Ted,
Can I make it clear that I don't carry out preventative whole body scans even though I am often asked. I do offer screening ultrasound for aortic aneurysms in elderly male smokers as the NHS does not provide this even though there is unanimous expert opinion that it is worth doing. The £50 I charge for a once in a lifetime scan is hardly profiteering

Anonymous said...

The problem is recognising what we have and how we got there.

Hell, the NHS nearly ended up with the state-insurance, private provision concept in the first place. Nationalising the hospitals was one option in the original plans/reports.

GPs are semi-private providers of health care. I note that most of their complaints against the system are that they are constrained from doing the right thing by the system. That is, they want complete control of their work - be fully independent..... fully private :-)

The "US is the only alternative" mantra is a smokescreen to defend the current comedy. Almost no-one else has their system. Bit like the popularity of the NHS method.

In the real world, people who can, choose. When my daughter gets sick, I don't phone NHS direct etc. because if I do, we get sent to the causality dept. of a filthy, falling apart hospital, full of fighting drunks to wait several hours before we can join the queue in the paediatric clinic (no space for lots of children). This is because we are in the catchment area.... Instead, being a middle class scummer, I taxi her to the wrong hospital. The one with space, beds and medical staff who appear to have had an opportunity to sleep in the last week. Did I mention that the crap hospital sends you to the decent one, after getting to see a doctor?

A few years ago, by brother looked as if he would need an operation. A chum of his who was a senior chap at a certain famous hospital gave him a list of who he should trust to operate and who he should refuse to be in the same building as. All verbal. This was back when measuring such things was being ranted about (John Major was PM)...

We use BUPA when we can. AXA and similar schemes are becoming a standard part of good jobs in this country. It *saves* the company money. Bit like paying for flu shots. Now you getting competition on the lines of "Our scheme gives you better coverage". We are already in the land of mixed funding. Just for the well off and those who know.

Don't wish away all management. Without management and financial control an organisation will collapse very rapidly. I have seen this personally. What is wrong with the NHS is centralisation. This means many, many layers of management. In the private sector we know this cannot work.

In addition they are attempting to reduce all the jobs in the NHS to tick boxing. This was a management idea tried and abandoned in the 20s - reducing people to numbed robots doesn't make things better. Does this sound familiar.

The problem is control. There is a religious belief that one more target, one more directive can change things. "You can't just let people spend public money..."

Control of other people is an illusion. It is imperative that the system lets go. There needs to be management. Good management. Smaller, better paid - with more power. Yes, I know. But motivated differently. A real manager is an enabler, not a troll in a basement who whacks you with a club. No, I am not a manager. But I have worked for good and bad ones.

What we need is a loss of control. For the Sec of State to have no power to tell a hospital administrator *how* to run a hospital.

The NHS IT thing is a perfect example of this. I went to a seminar run by Craig Larman - one of the top guys out there on project management. He asked me why the NHS contracts were being run on a waterfall basis - first you gather the basic data, then you write the prefect design... etc. He was puzzled because the waterfall concept was discovered to be utterly useless for large projects in the 1960s - no-one has *ever* made a multi-million dollar project a success with that method, let alone....

It comes back to control. To run such a large project successfully means *not* centralising, not having a vast staff to control it, not having a huge pile of paper to prove that all the paper clips are aligned correctly... all an anathema to those who run things....

The NHS is dying. Those who can are leaving. The NHS is killing itself. More money will kill it faster - I have seen this happen when a failing organisation is given more money to fix things up. Without reform the problem get worse, faster